4 ms·

I don’t know about popes, but many prominent mathematicians, philosophers and early scientists were priests or monks: Mendel, Copernicus, Bayes, Ockham, Bolzano

by oersted 8mo ago

I don’t know about popes, but many prominent mathematicians, philosophers and early scientists were priests or monks: Mendel, Copernicus, Bayes, Ockham, Bolzano... It was pretty much the only way to get the kind of education, intellectual culture, time and focus required for hundreds of years (at least in Europe), until the upper-middle class widened around the enlightenment and industrial revolution. The friction between the church and science is a relatively new phenomenon, at least at the current scale. There are always exceptions like Galileo, but it took science a long time to start answering (and contradicting) some of the key questions about our world and where we come from that religion addresses.

DonHopkins 8mo ago
> There are always exceptions like Galileo Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?
- tsimionescu 8mo ago
  Comapring the assassination of a president by a pro-slaver to a scholarly and political dispute that ended up with house arrest in a villa, where he wrote and published his most important work, is a bit wild. The Church has done much, much worse things than the dispute with Galileo.
  - DonHopkins 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - tsimionescu 8mo ago
      While I agree that the various versions of the Bible people are using have many immoral teachings, including slavery, what does that have to do with whether Galileo's trial is a damning example of anti-science work in the Catholic Church?
    - 1718627440 8mo ago
      Is it? I understood it to teach "behaviour" orthogonal to slavery, meaning you treat your fellow the same regardless if the heathen see him as a slave or as the emperor.
      - deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
      - tsimionescu 8mo ago
        While the GP was making a complete non-sequitur, they were right about this. The Old Testament / the Hebrew Bible in particular sets down clear rules for how specifically slavery should be practiced, so that part is undeniable. It's also undeniable that slavery was a common practice both in Palestine and in the Roman Empire more broadly both long before and long after Jesus' lifetime, among Jewish people as well as Christians. To what extent the New Testament actually overrides the laws of the Old Testament is very contradictory, even in the text itself, but it certainly doesn't say anywhere to any extent that you must not own slaves (well, except the part where Jesus tells a follower to give up all worldly possessions, sell all of their holdings and donate them to charity, which would clearly include any slaves as well - but no one follows this part of the teachings anyway).
graemep 8mo ago
> The friction between the church and science is a relatively new phenomenon, at least at the current scale Current scale? What current friction do you have in mind. I honestly cannot think of anything with the Catholic church. Lots of friction with evangelical Biblical literalists, of course, but the Catholic Church is not literalist. > There are always exceptions like Galileo The Galileo case is more about personalities and politics. it is a very good example of why religious authority should be in the same hands as secular power, but it is not really about his beliefs - no one else (including Copernicus) faced opposition for the same ideas.
- graemep 8mo ago
  Just to correct my wording. I mean "persecution" not "opposition". there was plenty of opposition and people were arguing for multiple alternatives to the Ptolemaic model at the time.
- fluoridation 8mo ago
  >it is a very good example of why religious authority should be in the same hands as secular power Did you forget a "not"?
wolvesechoes 8mo ago
> There are always exceptions like Galileo Well, considering that Galileo basically called Pope a fool, and the punishment he received was home arrest, this affair is not really the best evidence of Church prejudice, backwardness and cruelty. And if we agree with Feyerabend, Galileo of today would probably has as much difficulty as the original one, for the initial evidence he provided wasn't strong enough to discard knowledge of that time.

by oersted 8mo ago

DonHopkins 8mo ago

> There are always exceptions like Galileo Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

tsimionescu 8mo ago
Comapring the assassination of a president by a pro-slaver to a scholarly and political dispute that ended up with house arrest in a villa, where he wrote and published his most important work, is a bit wild. The Church has done much, much worse things than the dispute with Galileo.
- DonHopkins 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - tsimionescu 8mo ago
    While I agree that the various versions of the Bible people are using have many immoral teachings, including slavery, what does that have to do with whether Galileo's trial is a damning example of anti-science work in the Catholic Church?
  - 1718627440 8mo ago
    Is it? I understood it to teach "behaviour" orthogonal to slavery, meaning you treat your fellow the same regardless if the heathen see him as a slave or as the emperor.
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]
    - tsimionescu 8mo ago
      While the GP was making a complete non-sequitur, they were right about this. The Old Testament / the Hebrew Bible in particular sets down clear rules for how specifically slavery should be practiced, so that part is undeniable. It's also undeniable that slavery was a common practice both in Palestine and in the Roman Empire more broadly both long before and long after Jesus' lifetime, among Jewish people as well as Christians. To what extent the New Testament actually overrides the laws of the Old Testament is very contradictory, even in the text itself, but it certainly doesn't say anywhere to any extent that you must not own slaves (well, except the part where Jesus tells a follower to give up all worldly possessions, sell all of their holdings and donate them to charity, which would clearly include any slaves as well - but no one follows this part of the teachings anyway).

graemep 8mo ago

> The friction between the church and science is a relatively new phenomenon, at least at the current scale Current scale? What current friction do you have in mind. I honestly cannot think of anything with the Catholic church. Lots of friction with evangelical Biblical literalists, of course, but the Catholic Church is not literalist. > There are always exceptions like Galileo The Galileo case is more about personalities and politics. it is a very good example of why religious authority should be in the same hands as secular power, but it is not really about his beliefs - no one else (including Copernicus) faced opposition for the same ideas.

graemep 8mo ago
Just to correct my wording. I mean "persecution" not "opposition". there was plenty of opposition and people were arguing for multiple alternatives to the Ptolemaic model at the time.
fluoridation 8mo ago
>it is a very good example of why religious authority should be in the same hands as secular power Did you forget a "not"?

wolvesechoes 8mo ago

> There are always exceptions like Galileo Well, considering that Galileo basically called Pope a fool, and the punishment he received was home arrest, this affair is not really the best evidence of Church prejudice, backwardness and cruelty. And if we agree with Feyerabend, Galileo of today would probably has as much difficulty as the original one, for the initial evidence he provided wasn't strong enough to discard knowledge of that time.