4 ms·

Fuck off. Every declaration you make about how great your magical business background was is hedged with qualifiers and exceptions. Tech and design are riddle

Fuck off. Every declaration you make about how great your magical business background was is hedged with qualifiers and exceptions. Tech and design are riddled with lazy entitled assholes, granted, but that's because lazy entitled assholes are everywhere. It is apparent you got fucked over in some fashion. I do have empathy for that, but I didn't piss in your corn flakes so stay the hell out of mine.

notsomuch96 18y ago
Wow! That was insightful. Good for you. Yes, this post was prompted by a team member who screwed us over royally, but it's happened enough over the last year to indicate a certain set of principles that are common amongst the people we've worked with. I think it would be interesting to hear how the community balances passion for a project vs. commitment. For example, I think it's great that you are able to take on only those projects that you really enjoy or have passion for. But, in my experience, this has been taken way too far. For example, after months of vetting and working together as a team, and much sacrifice made by all team members, we've had programmers pull out on us at crucial periods. Not because of technology disputes or personal issues or disagreements about money, but simply because they've decided that they're really "not passionate" about this particular project. I can understand choosing a project based on enjoyment and passion, but once you a make a commitment, you need to man up and come through with your side of the bargain, especially if everybody else contributes as agreed. In a business world where nobody lives up to their word, there's going to be an awful lot of chaos. I've seen enough programmers flake out and blame it on "lack of enjoyment" to know that this thread is obviously running through the community. Rather than being instilled with a sense of responsibility, independent programmers are encouraged by this community to simply follow their passion and do absolutely nothing that they don't consider "enjoyable" at all times. This approach, in the extreme, is counter productive for our society. There is no situation where good things happen without some level of sacrifice. In my experience, the coder community has convinced itself that anything hard or structured in any way, is not worth the time. That's troubling.
- rdrimmie 18y ago
  I didn't come here for insight, I came here for entertainment. ;-) Of course that thread is running through the community. We're a community that (largely) works by choice. We're privileged because we have skills you don't, and you need us. Isn't that basic supply and demand? The things that I take issue with in your original post is the attitude that this somehow breaks us or that there's a lack of innovation because of this. Here's a secret: this isn't new. Steve Jobs was saying Real Artists Ship in the early 1980s. People who call themselves writers have talked about the ideas buried in their heads for generations. Programming is a creative art, and generally speaking the people who are good at it can pick and choose the work they do. If you want good people to do work for you, it is your responsibility to make that work attractive. I also disagree with the assertion that it is somehow or societal obligation to do shit work. Yes, taken to the extreme there wouldn't be any janitors but point out a time when there has ever been a dearth of janitors? Taken to the extreme any generalized behaviour is counter productive for our society. Taking things to the extreme is only good for marketing to teenagers. It's not a one-way street. Listen to the common complaints from the community (not HN in specific, although it's there) though, because there's plenty about flaky business people who change requirements or who take advantage of the fact that there's a limited range of employment opportunities in some geographic regions. If you want practical advice, next time you look to work with someone, look at their history. Do they ship? What have they shipped? How late was it and how long did it take to get the first minor update released afterwards? Ask them when in the past have they busted through the boring slog and what it was that motivated them to do so. Or hey, do what most people with boring projects do: find someone who isn't (or doesn't know they are) great, and exploit them. They will stick with you through any shit you throw at them because they are rabidly afraid of losing their job. Pay the great people to design the solution and pay the mediocre people to do the mediocre work. The work will get done and the end result will be good enough.

notsomuch96 18y ago

Wow! That was insightful. Good for you. Yes, this post was prompted by a team member who screwed us over royally, but it's happened enough over the last year to indicate a certain set of principles that are common amongst the people we've worked with. I think it would be interesting to hear how the community balances passion for a project vs. commitment. For example, I think it's great that you are able to take on only those projects that you really enjoy or have passion for. But, in my experience, this has been taken way too far. For example, after months of vetting and working together as a team, and much sacrifice made by all team members, we've had programmers pull out on us at crucial periods. Not because of technology disputes or personal issues or disagreements about money, but simply because they've decided that they're really "not passionate" about this particular project. I can understand choosing a project based on enjoyment and passion, but once you a make a commitment, you need to man up and come through with your side of the bargain, especially if everybody else contributes as agreed. In a business world where nobody lives up to their word, there's going to be an awful lot of chaos. I've seen enough programmers flake out and blame it on "lack of enjoyment" to know that this thread is obviously running through the community. Rather than being instilled with a sense of responsibility, independent programmers are encouraged by this community to simply follow their passion and do absolutely nothing that they don't consider "enjoyable" at all times. This approach, in the extreme, is counter productive for our society. There is no situation where good things happen without some level of sacrifice. In my experience, the coder community has convinced itself that anything hard or structured in any way, is not worth the time. That's troubling.

rdrimmie 18y ago
I didn't come here for insight, I came here for entertainment. ;-) Of course that thread is running through the community. We're a community that (largely) works by choice. We're privileged because we have skills you don't, and you need us. Isn't that basic supply and demand? The things that I take issue with in your original post is the attitude that this somehow breaks us or that there's a lack of innovation because of this. Here's a secret: this isn't new. Steve Jobs was saying Real Artists Ship in the early 1980s. People who call themselves writers have talked about the ideas buried in their heads for generations. Programming is a creative art, and generally speaking the people who are good at it can pick and choose the work they do. If you want good people to do work for you, it is your responsibility to make that work attractive. I also disagree with the assertion that it is somehow or societal obligation to do shit work. Yes, taken to the extreme there wouldn't be any janitors but point out a time when there has ever been a dearth of janitors? Taken to the extreme any generalized behaviour is counter productive for our society. Taking things to the extreme is only good for marketing to teenagers. It's not a one-way street. Listen to the common complaints from the community (not HN in specific, although it's there) though, because there's plenty about flaky business people who change requirements or who take advantage of the fact that there's a limited range of employment opportunities in some geographic regions. If you want practical advice, next time you look to work with someone, look at their history. Do they ship? What have they shipped? How late was it and how long did it take to get the first minor update released afterwards? Ask them when in the past have they busted through the boring slog and what it was that motivated them to do so. Or hey, do what most people with boring projects do: find someone who isn't (or doesn't know they are) great, and exploit them. They will stick with you through any shit you throw at them because they are rabidly afraid of losing their job. Pay the great people to design the solution and pay the mediocre people to do the mediocre work. The work will get done and the end result will be good enough.