3 ms·

> At every layer, the answer is "anyone can run their own." At every layer, almost nobody does. And at every layer except for maybe the PLC directory, there's

> At every layer, the answer is "anyone can run their own." At every layer, almost nobody does. And at every layer except for maybe the PLC directory, there's nothing stopping anyone from fixing that “almost nobody does” problem. The fact that such a thing is even possible, and that it's seamless to move from one to the other, gives ATproto a massive leg-up compared to even other federated systems, let alone its non-federated predecessors.

kevinak 8mo ago
How would they fix it?
- verdverm 8mo ago
  I explained in another comment you also replied to. It's not broken, it works as intended, the plan is for improvements and de-risking. Is there something missing from my answer about what the plan is for the PLC? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47104673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47104673
- yellowapple 8mo ago
  I don't think “they” have a whole lot to fix. It's more a matter of people needing to fix their own laziness. I'll be the first to admit I'm guilty of this, too, and still haven't gotten around to moving my main account to a self-hosted PDS (though I've at least taken the steps to backup my CAR and set my own rotation keys, such that if my PDS goes offline or hostile I can still migrate away from it).
wmf 8mo ago
It's really the defaults that need to be fixed and anyone cannot change those.
- verdverm 8mo ago
  Which defaults do you think need to change?
  - wmf 8mo ago
    I assume the onboarding steers everyone to one PDS provider and the mobile apps only use one appview server.
    - kelvinjps10 8mo ago
      I feel it enters now in the territory of being more confusing for users and having less adoption. It's tricky to create a decentralized network for the masses.
      - wmf 8mo ago
        Just don't tell the users anything about it.
      - nine_k 8mo ago
        Torrents are a decentralized network for the masses. It works because it does not matter where you enter it.
    - verdverm 8mo ago
      Multiple apps are running their own PDS, new users to their app go there by default, but it is app by app. I believe every bsky mobile app is likely pointed at a single app view, but there's no reason they cannot offer a setting, which now after typing that, maybe I do recall someone saying they did that with their app. There are dozens of Bluesky apps now, some even have highly requested features. I't part of the beauty of ATProto, anyone can build a client for any one (or more) app views. There are alternative ways, eg. use Slices for queries, write directly to PDS, no app view needed for any app in the atmosphere. It really feels like folks are trying to find a single whole they can poke and claim some win. Time continues to flow, the atmosphere continues to grow, and if you get tuned in and join us, Oh The Places You'll Go!
coldtea 8mo ago
>And at every layer except for maybe the PLC directory, there's nothing stopping anyone from fixing that “almost nobody does” problem. If there's nothing stopping anyone from fixing a problem, and yet nobody fixes it, then there's something is stopping them. Might not be a technical impossibility, or a gun in their head. Could be as simple as inertia or addiction. But saying "the problem is totally solvable" just because there's a solution available, is pretty naive. Solutions have costs themselves, and not all are created equal or equally feasible.
- davidgerard 8mo ago
  A relay or appview needs a ton of resources. Blacksky finally created the second ever real-world usable appview instance after 2.5 years. Also, the open source version of the appview doesn't work at Bluesky scale. You need a proprietary database for sufficient speed. AT Proto is completely decentralised, except for all the structural and financial points of absolute centralisation.
  - verdverm 8mo ago
    The relay is not that bad, the only really bad part is building an index, and most apps on the atmosphere have no need to index bluesky records, so the economics for them look very different. The work towards permissioned data and group-shared data will make it so apps can choose their own levels of "decentralization" of "federation" on atproto primitives. For example, two diametric options 1. An app that is not open source code, but still does all the same atproto credible exit stuff. Naturally leans into winner-take-all 2. An app that is tied to community, think something like Discord, where most servers don't care about what other servers are doing. Each community could run their own version and only care about their data. This is raspberry pi hostable.
- tyre 8mo ago
  Or people don't think it's a problem! Maybe there are a ton of people who joined Bluesky because twitter devolved into a room-temperature-IQ right-wing hell hole, not because they cared about federation or whatever. Everything has trade-offs. Again and again people choose centralized services because they are a better product.
bccdee 8mo ago
Yeah they're describing a real problem, but the cause of that problem—a seamless centralized sign-up funded by VC money—is the reason bluesky took off to begin with. Bsky offers an on-ramp to a more decentralized experience, but most people won't pay the money and experience the friction to move take that ramp. Platforms like Mastodon are entirely decentralized, but that means the friction of decentralizing happens immediately upon sign-up. The people who don't want to self-host PDSes never signed up for Mastodon to begin with. I try to be skeptical, but I feel like bsky (or something like it) is the best way can do re: bringing decentralization to the masses.
- user3939382 8mo ago
  Or you get a Facebook XMPP situation where the federation is a cool feature few use until the platform’s mature enough to say actually no.
- account42 8mo ago
  > Platforms like Mastodon are entirely decentralized They are not, they're federated and that distinction really matters here. A decentralized platform would be designed to make running your own single user or at least small instance the default but neither ActivityPub nor ATproto do that.
phantomathkg 8mo ago
Fixing the problem requires 2 resources, the knowhow and the money. People need to know how to execute it safely, and people need to have the disposable income to run their PDS. Even for tech people in HN, not everyone will have the disposable income to self-hosted every digital life lands on. Somehow, somewhere one may need to use free services paid by VC money.

kevinak 8mo ago

How would they fix it?

verdverm 8mo ago
I explained in another comment you also replied to. It's not broken, it works as intended, the plan is for improvements and de-risking. Is there something missing from my answer about what the plan is for the PLC? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47104673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47104673
yellowapple 8mo ago
I don't think “they” have a whole lot to fix. It's more a matter of people needing to fix their own laziness. I'll be the first to admit I'm guilty of this, too, and still haven't gotten around to moving my main account to a self-hosted PDS (though I've at least taken the steps to backup my CAR and set my own rotation keys, such that if my PDS goes offline or hostile I can still migrate away from it).

wmf 8mo ago

It's really the defaults that need to be fixed and anyone cannot change those.

verdverm 8mo ago
Which defaults do you think need to change?
- wmf 8mo ago
  I assume the onboarding steers everyone to one PDS provider and the mobile apps only use one appview server.
  - kelvinjps10 8mo ago
    I feel it enters now in the territory of being more confusing for users and having less adoption. It's tricky to create a decentralized network for the masses.
    - wmf 8mo ago
      Just don't tell the users anything about it.
    - nine_k 8mo ago
      Torrents are a decentralized network for the masses. It works because it does not matter where you enter it.
  - verdverm 8mo ago
    Multiple apps are running their own PDS, new users to their app go there by default, but it is app by app. I believe every bsky mobile app is likely pointed at a single app view, but there's no reason they cannot offer a setting, which now after typing that, maybe I do recall someone saying they did that with their app. There are dozens of Bluesky apps now, some even have highly requested features. I't part of the beauty of ATProto, anyone can build a client for any one (or more) app views. There are alternative ways, eg. use Slices for queries, write directly to PDS, no app view needed for any app in the atmosphere. It really feels like folks are trying to find a single whole they can poke and claim some win. Time continues to flow, the atmosphere continues to grow, and if you get tuned in and join us, Oh The Places You'll Go!

coldtea 8mo ago

>And at every layer except for maybe the PLC directory, there's nothing stopping anyone from fixing that “almost nobody does” problem. If there's nothing stopping anyone from fixing a problem, and yet nobody fixes it, then there's something is stopping them. Might not be a technical impossibility, or a gun in their head. Could be as simple as inertia or addiction. But saying "the problem is totally solvable" just because there's a solution available, is pretty naive. Solutions have costs themselves, and not all are created equal or equally feasible.

davidgerard 8mo ago
A relay or appview needs a ton of resources. Blacksky finally created the second ever real-world usable appview instance after 2.5 years. Also, the open source version of the appview doesn't work at Bluesky scale. You need a proprietary database for sufficient speed. AT Proto is completely decentralised, except for all the structural and financial points of absolute centralisation.
- verdverm 8mo ago
  The relay is not that bad, the only really bad part is building an index, and most apps on the atmosphere have no need to index bluesky records, so the economics for them look very different. The work towards permissioned data and group-shared data will make it so apps can choose their own levels of "decentralization" of "federation" on atproto primitives. For example, two diametric options 1. An app that is not open source code, but still does all the same atproto credible exit stuff. Naturally leans into winner-take-all 2. An app that is tied to community, think something like Discord, where most servers don't care about what other servers are doing. Each community could run their own version and only care about their data. This is raspberry pi hostable.
tyre 8mo ago
Or people don't think it's a problem! Maybe there are a ton of people who joined Bluesky because twitter devolved into a room-temperature-IQ right-wing hell hole, not because they cared about federation or whatever. Everything has trade-offs. Again and again people choose centralized services because they are a better product.

bccdee 8mo ago

Yeah they're describing a real problem, but the cause of that problem—a seamless centralized sign-up funded by VC money—is the reason bluesky took off to begin with. Bsky offers an on-ramp to a more decentralized experience, but most people won't pay the money and experience the friction to move take that ramp. Platforms like Mastodon are entirely decentralized, but that means the friction of decentralizing happens immediately upon sign-up. The people who don't want to self-host PDSes never signed up for Mastodon to begin with. I try to be skeptical, but I feel like bsky (or something like it) is the best way can do re: bringing decentralization to the masses.

user3939382 8mo ago
Or you get a Facebook XMPP situation where the federation is a cool feature few use until the platform’s mature enough to say actually no.
account42 8mo ago
> Platforms like Mastodon are entirely decentralized They are not, they're federated and that distinction really matters here. A decentralized platform would be designed to make running your own single user or at least small instance the default but neither ActivityPub nor ATproto do that.

phantomathkg 8mo ago

Fixing the problem requires 2 resources, the knowhow and the money. People need to know how to execute it safely, and people need to have the disposable income to run their PDS. Even for tech people in HN, not everyone will have the disposable income to self-hosted every digital life lands on. Somehow, somewhere one may need to use free services paid by VC money.