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Why the glib dismissal when you most certainly live in a country where the use of titles like 'doctor', 'dentist', 'officer' or 'lawyer' is most certainly regul

by Teever 8mo ago

Why the glib dismissal when you most certainly live in a country where the use of titles like 'doctor', 'dentist', 'officer' or 'lawyer' is most certainly regulated? This isn't really that exceptional and as someone from a place where not just anyone can call themselves engineer I'm always baffled when people think that it is.

Betelbuddy 8mo ago
Your comment completely misses the point of my question. Those countries are regulating the title not the profession. Here is the difference: the Doctors have a liability for their medical practice, the real Engineers meaning those doing Bridges and Buildings that can kill thousands of people if they fall, have a professional obligation and responsability on the outcomes of their designs and implementation. I can guarantee you, no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop :-) As you very well can see, if you bother to read the full details on the Software License disclaimers of any software from any large company. From Microsoft to Oracle, IBM and others. As such those are Software Engineers on title only, what is convenient to be hired for post within Government and similar...
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  That is the thing software can kill, or destroy lives in presence of bugs. Again, sign any legal documents as engineer, and a court visit might turn into reality.
  - Betelbuddy 8mo ago
    If Oracle, IBM or Microsoft after 50 years, and employing thousands of Software Engineers ...include the standard disclaimers on their Software, I dont think those in title only should make much fuss of the Software Engineer badge...
    - namibj 8mo ago
      Then maybe you shouldn't be allowed to rely on such software not causing utter carnage when you're implementing some infrastructure thing via software? Also note that such warranty disclaiming "fitness for any purpose" is not possible if you sell for money software that you say is for such an infrastructure situation, at least in e.g. Germany. That's not from the license but from the sale though.
    - pjmlp 8mo ago
      Only because so far they haven't been called into court as much as they should. Thankfully stuff like Crowdstrike and Cloudflare are making governments pay attention to industry losses caused by malpractice.
- Teever 8mo ago
  > no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop Then they shouldn't call themselves engineers. It's not really a big deal and I don't understand the confusion around this.
  - Betelbuddy 8mo ago
    >> Then they shouldn't call themselves engineers That is the whole point. :-) Real Software Engineers do not exist other than in title. Some institutions and governments are arbitraging those who can use the title...

by Teever 8mo ago

Betelbuddy 8mo ago

Your comment completely misses the point of my question. Those countries are regulating the title not the profession. Here is the difference: the Doctors have a liability for their medical practice, the real Engineers meaning those doing Bridges and Buildings that can kill thousands of people if they fall, have a professional obligation and responsability on the outcomes of their designs and implementation. I can guarantee you, no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop :-) As you very well can see, if you bother to read the full details on the Software License disclaimers of any software from any large company. From Microsoft to Oracle, IBM and others. As such those are Software Engineers on title only, what is convenient to be hired for post within Government and similar...

pjmlp 8mo ago
That is the thing software can kill, or destroy lives in presence of bugs. Again, sign any legal documents as engineer, and a court visit might turn into reality.
- Betelbuddy 8mo ago
  If Oracle, IBM or Microsoft after 50 years, and employing thousands of Software Engineers ...include the standard disclaimers on their Software, I dont think those in title only should make much fuss of the Software Engineer badge...
  - namibj 8mo ago
    Then maybe you shouldn't be allowed to rely on such software not causing utter carnage when you're implementing some infrastructure thing via software? Also note that such warranty disclaiming "fitness for any purpose" is not possible if you sell for money software that you say is for such an infrastructure situation, at least in e.g. Germany. That's not from the license but from the sale though.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    Only because so far they haven't been called into court as much as they should. Thankfully stuff like Crowdstrike and Cloudflare are making governments pay attention to industry losses caused by malpractice.
Teever 8mo ago
> no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop Then they shouldn't call themselves engineers. It's not really a big deal and I don't understand the confusion around this.
- Betelbuddy 8mo ago
  >> Then they shouldn't call themselves engineers That is the whole point. :-) Real Software Engineers do not exist other than in title. Some institutions and governments are arbitraging those who can use the title...