5 ms·

You don’t understand the allure of having a computer actually do stuff for you instead of being a place where you receive email and get yelled at by a linter?

ranger_danger 8mo ago
Perhaps people are just too jaded about the whole "I'll never have to work again" or "the computer can do all my work for me" miracle that has always been just around the corner for decades.
- selridge 8mo ago
  I do t see either of those as the premise. This is about getting the computer to do the stuff we had been promised computing would make easier, stuff that was never capital-H Hard but just annoying. Most of the real claw skills are people connecting stuff that has always been connectable but it has been so fiddly as to make it a full time side project to maintain, or you need to opt into a narrow walled garden that someone can monetize to really get connectivity. Now you can just get an LLM to learn apple’s special calendar format so you can connect it to a note-taking app in a way that only you might want. You don’t need to make it a second job to learn whatever glue needs to make that happen.
  - tovej 8mo ago
    Reading some documentation to figure out a format is something you do once and takes you a few minutes. Are you a developer? Then this is something you probably do a couple times a day. Prompting the correct version will take longer and will leave you with much less understanding of the system you just implemented. So once it fails you don't know how to fix it.
    - selridge 8mo ago
      I love that the posture is I have a problem I need you to fix haha. I don't need you to fix my problems. I'm reporting that the LLM-based solution beats the dogshit out of the old "become a journeyman on one of 11 billion bullshit formats or processes" practice.
      - tovej 8mo ago
        I'm not trying to help you, I'm just wondering how the LLM actually helps you. You don't need to become a journeyman at understanding a format, you just need to see a schema, or find an open source utility. I just can't comprehend the actual helplessness that a developer would have to experience in order to have to ask an LLM to do something like this. If I were that daunted by parsing a standardized file format for a workflow, I would have to be experiencing a major burnout. How could I ever assume I could do any actual technical work if I'm overwhelmed by a parsing problem that has out-of-the-box solutions available.
        selridge 8mo ago
        I’ll give you a real concrete example. I had to build an app on the Mac, which needed to be signed. I did not want to learn Apple signing procedures in order to do this. It turns out I did not have to, because I got the robot to learn it. So then I was able to finish doing what it was I intended to do without having to spend an afternoon or a day misunderstanding the Apple signing procedures. Could I have learned these and become a more virtuous person by knowing apples signing rules? Maybe. What’s much more likely is that I might’ve just stopped doing this rather than deal with that particular difficulty. Instead, I was able to work on other problems that arose in the building of this application. What I am suggesting to you is that I don’t have to fucking feel bad for being daunted anymore. And neither does anyone else. Folks that want to do that on their own time are free to, but I’m never going back. There’s a lot of projects for people where this is gonna start to be the operative situation. Folks who might have gotten stuck on an early stumbling block are now just moving ahead and are learning about different and frankly more interesting problems to solve. I’m still beating my head on things, but they are not. “did I get this format just right?” This shift is an analogous to how we took having to do computer arithmetic out of the hands of programmers in the 80s. There used to be a substantial part of programming that was just a computer arithmetic. Now, almost nobody does that. Nobody in this thread could build a full adder if their life depended on it or produce an accurate sin function. It used to be that that would’ve stopped you cold and trying to answer an engineering problem on a computer. Now it doesn’t. We do not run around telling people that they’re not engineers or that they’re not learning because we have made this affordance.
karel-3d 8mo ago
What does it "do for me"? I want to do things. I don't want a probabilistic machine I can't trust to do things. The things that annoy me in life - tax reports, doctor appointments, sending invoices. No way in hell I am letting LLM do that! Everything else in life I enjoy.

ranger_danger 8mo ago

Perhaps people are just too jaded about the whole "I'll never have to work again" or "the computer can do all my work for me" miracle that has always been just around the corner for decades.

selridge 8mo ago
I do t see either of those as the premise. This is about getting the computer to do the stuff we had been promised computing would make easier, stuff that was never capital-H Hard but just annoying. Most of the real claw skills are people connecting stuff that has always been connectable but it has been so fiddly as to make it a full time side project to maintain, or you need to opt into a narrow walled garden that someone can monetize to really get connectivity. Now you can just get an LLM to learn apple’s special calendar format so you can connect it to a note-taking app in a way that only you might want. You don’t need to make it a second job to learn whatever glue needs to make that happen.
- tovej 8mo ago
  Reading some documentation to figure out a format is something you do once and takes you a few minutes. Are you a developer? Then this is something you probably do a couple times a day. Prompting the correct version will take longer and will leave you with much less understanding of the system you just implemented. So once it fails you don't know how to fix it.
  - selridge 8mo ago
    I love that the posture is I have a problem I need you to fix haha. I don't need you to fix my problems. I'm reporting that the LLM-based solution beats the dogshit out of the old "become a journeyman on one of 11 billion bullshit formats or processes" practice.
    - tovej 8mo ago
      I'm not trying to help you, I'm just wondering how the LLM actually helps you. You don't need to become a journeyman at understanding a format, you just need to see a schema, or find an open source utility. I just can't comprehend the actual helplessness that a developer would have to experience in order to have to ask an LLM to do something like this. If I were that daunted by parsing a standardized file format for a workflow, I would have to be experiencing a major burnout. How could I ever assume I could do any actual technical work if I'm overwhelmed by a parsing problem that has out-of-the-box solutions available.
      - selridge 8mo ago
        I’ll give you a real concrete example. I had to build an app on the Mac, which needed to be signed. I did not want to learn Apple signing procedures in order to do this. It turns out I did not have to, because I got the robot to learn it. So then I was able to finish doing what it was I intended to do without having to spend an afternoon or a day misunderstanding the Apple signing procedures. Could I have learned these and become a more virtuous person by knowing apples signing rules? Maybe. What’s much more likely is that I might’ve just stopped doing this rather than deal with that particular difficulty. Instead, I was able to work on other problems that arose in the building of this application. What I am suggesting to you is that I don’t have to fucking feel bad for being daunted anymore. And neither does anyone else. Folks that want to do that on their own time are free to, but I’m never going back. There’s a lot of projects for people where this is gonna start to be the operative situation. Folks who might have gotten stuck on an early stumbling block are now just moving ahead and are learning about different and frankly more interesting problems to solve. I’m still beating my head on things, but they are not. “did I get this format just right?” This shift is an analogous to how we took having to do computer arithmetic out of the hands of programmers in the 80s. There used to be a substantial part of programming that was just a computer arithmetic. Now, almost nobody does that. Nobody in this thread could build a full adder if their life depended on it or produce an accurate sin function. It used to be that that would’ve stopped you cold and trying to answer an engineering problem on a computer. Now it doesn’t. We do not run around telling people that they’re not engineers or that they’re not learning because we have made this affordance.

karel-3d 8mo ago

What does it "do for me"? I want to do things. I don't want a probabilistic machine I can't trust to do things. The things that annoy me in life - tax reports, doctor appointments, sending invoices. No way in hell I am letting LLM do that! Everything else in life I enjoy.