4 ms·

This would be a good explanation but most of these immigrants, especially from outside the EU, are not net contributors. vide https://www.economist.com/sites/d

by blfr 8mo ago

This would be a good explanation but most of these immigrants, especially from outside the EU, are not net contributors. vide https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20211218_EUC232.png https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-e... from https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/12/18/why-have-danes-turned-against-immigration https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/12/18/why-have-danes-t... And I highly doubt other governments don't have similar calculations or aren't aware of them.

ForHackernews 8mo ago
...but Brits voted against EU immigrants.
- blfr 8mo ago
  Yeah, what I am saying is that these votes, regardless of their formal content, are usually an expression of general anti-immigrant sentiment. Like voting for AfD. I doubt many people look at this organization and its leaders to conclude that "ah, here is the talent I would love to have running my country." They're merely the only available option against. Same with brexit.
  - breakyerself 8mo ago
    Similar to voting for brexit if they ever get what they're voting for they'll come to regret it.
  - kjksf 8mo ago
    UK pays for free housing of 110 thousand immigrants. And that's just one of the many well fare benefits. But when they face deficit, they raise taxes instead of, crazy idea, not spending billions of money taken from UK citizens to provide free housing and food for foreigners. UK citizens are rightfully pissed off that their life is getting worse. That's not the social contract and being pissed off about that is not racism. It's self preservation. The same happens in Spain, Germany, France, Italy. That's your big mystery of why AfD or Reform UK are popular: because the parties currently in power are flat out refusing to implement clear desires of their voters. That's how democracy is supposed to work: AfD and Reform UK and Le Pen are gaining because they are promising to implement the desires of citizens of German, UK or France.
    - ForHackernews 8mo ago
      > The same happens in Spain, Germany, France, Italy. Spain is a bad example to reach for here, they are on track to regularize a huge chunk of unauthorized migrants: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62n6gw1dp9o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62n6gw1dp9o
- netsharc 8mo ago
  Because Poles and Romanians are "other" enough to be hated... Ironically Britain had then to "import" people from Asia, Africa to e.g. work in the hospitals. The foreigner-hate is so short-sighted. Your underpaid hospital worker, house cleaner, fruit picker, taxi driver, UberEats delivery is usually foreign, they don't mind working the exploitative conditions because for them the money is much better than home, providing you with affordable fruits, taxis and delivery (until the rent-seeking corporations want even more than 30%...). Get rid of them, and you'll have to pay living wages for your fruits and delivery. Heh, Westerners, still wanting to enjoy the fruits of colonization. (Yeah the solution shouldn't be to continue allowing the exploitation, probably a better wealth distribution, but hey, why are you looking at my wallet, look at Elon's wallet!)
  - kjksf 8mo ago
    First, they didn't have to. Crazy idea: educate more people, lower barriers to entry, hire people from poorer western countries and not Africa. Poland has hospitals staffed 100% by Polish people. What prevents UK from doing the same? Second, if immigration was only for skilled workers to plug shortages of certain skills, it would not be a problem. It's a problem because in 2025 estimated 41 thousand unskilled people, mostly young men, landed in UK just via small boats. Those are not doctors or nurses or engineers or even fruit pickers. They are unemployed and therefore a massive drain on British resources. UK gov for some unexplained reason decided that they are responsible for housing and feeding them. The money comes from taxing UK citizens. The housing is zero sum game so it also comes from depriving some UK citizens, driving up the prices. And those people get sick too so they also take away hospital resources from UK citizens. And they don't work so you now have mostly young males loitering in neighborhoods.
    - bryanlarsen 8mo ago
      I'm sure the UK has way more than 41 thousand shitty jobs with shitty pay that no native really wants. I doubt they're not working because they don't want to. In Canada the standard complaint is that "immigrants take the jobs" not that "immigrants aren't working". It seems like it's a lot easier to get a job at a Tim Hortons if you speak Hindi like the owners and managers. A job at a restaurant if you speak Levantine Arabic. And those are just the public tip of the iceberg. Construction crews are mostly foreign. Our roofers were Indian. Our landscapers were Lebanese / Syrian. The people we interacted with spoke great English, but their workers didn't. The big difference is that Canada had constant immigration. They came over 40 years ago and since they had trouble finding employment became entrepreneurs and restaurants and construction and other blue collar services are the most fertile areas for entrepreneurs. Now they have a huge advantage in hiring low cost labor.
breakyerself 8mo ago
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6938108633c7ace9c4a41e42/The_Fiscal_Impact_of_Immigration_Final__1_.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6938108633c7a... https://www.ft.com/content/10daa0e9-d57b-4ccd-9bdc-87d321283398 https://www.ft.com/content/10daa0e9-d57b-4ccd-9bdc-87d321283...
jorvi 8mo ago
That Economist stat often gets misunderstood. It is "net contribution to public finances" (= how much taxes do they pay), not "net contribution to the economy". This is because they are overly represented in low wage jobs, or indeed on longterm welfare. People in the lowest tax brackets pay very little of it. I do agree that there needs to be a honest conversation about what (economic) immigrants offer vs. what they cost, but it needs to be done properly. We will need immigrants because we are below 2.1 in Total Fertility Rate. But, the EU doesn't need to be the comfy life raft of the world as it has been for the past 2-3 decades.

by blfr 8mo ago

ForHackernews 8mo ago

...but Brits voted against EU immigrants.

blfr 8mo ago
Yeah, what I am saying is that these votes, regardless of their formal content, are usually an expression of general anti-immigrant sentiment. Like voting for AfD. I doubt many people look at this organization and its leaders to conclude that "ah, here is the talent I would love to have running my country." They're merely the only available option against. Same with brexit.
- breakyerself 8mo ago
  Similar to voting for brexit if they ever get what they're voting for they'll come to regret it.
- kjksf 8mo ago
  UK pays for free housing of 110 thousand immigrants. And that's just one of the many well fare benefits. But when they face deficit, they raise taxes instead of, crazy idea, not spending billions of money taken from UK citizens to provide free housing and food for foreigners. UK citizens are rightfully pissed off that their life is getting worse. That's not the social contract and being pissed off about that is not racism. It's self preservation. The same happens in Spain, Germany, France, Italy. That's your big mystery of why AfD or Reform UK are popular: because the parties currently in power are flat out refusing to implement clear desires of their voters. That's how democracy is supposed to work: AfD and Reform UK and Le Pen are gaining because they are promising to implement the desires of citizens of German, UK or France.
  - ForHackernews 8mo ago
    > The same happens in Spain, Germany, France, Italy. Spain is a bad example to reach for here, they are on track to regularize a huge chunk of unauthorized migrants: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62n6gw1dp9o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62n6gw1dp9o
netsharc 8mo ago
Because Poles and Romanians are "other" enough to be hated... Ironically Britain had then to "import" people from Asia, Africa to e.g. work in the hospitals. The foreigner-hate is so short-sighted. Your underpaid hospital worker, house cleaner, fruit picker, taxi driver, UberEats delivery is usually foreign, they don't mind working the exploitative conditions because for them the money is much better than home, providing you with affordable fruits, taxis and delivery (until the rent-seeking corporations want even more than 30%...). Get rid of them, and you'll have to pay living wages for your fruits and delivery. Heh, Westerners, still wanting to enjoy the fruits of colonization. (Yeah the solution shouldn't be to continue allowing the exploitation, probably a better wealth distribution, but hey, why are you looking at my wallet, look at Elon's wallet!)
- kjksf 8mo ago
  First, they didn't have to. Crazy idea: educate more people, lower barriers to entry, hire people from poorer western countries and not Africa. Poland has hospitals staffed 100% by Polish people. What prevents UK from doing the same? Second, if immigration was only for skilled workers to plug shortages of certain skills, it would not be a problem. It's a problem because in 2025 estimated 41 thousand unskilled people, mostly young men, landed in UK just via small boats. Those are not doctors or nurses or engineers or even fruit pickers. They are unemployed and therefore a massive drain on British resources. UK gov for some unexplained reason decided that they are responsible for housing and feeding them. The money comes from taxing UK citizens. The housing is zero sum game so it also comes from depriving some UK citizens, driving up the prices. And those people get sick too so they also take away hospital resources from UK citizens. And they don't work so you now have mostly young males loitering in neighborhoods.
  - bryanlarsen 8mo ago
    I'm sure the UK has way more than 41 thousand shitty jobs with shitty pay that no native really wants. I doubt they're not working because they don't want to. In Canada the standard complaint is that "immigrants take the jobs" not that "immigrants aren't working". It seems like it's a lot easier to get a job at a Tim Hortons if you speak Hindi like the owners and managers. A job at a restaurant if you speak Levantine Arabic. And those are just the public tip of the iceberg. Construction crews are mostly foreign. Our roofers were Indian. Our landscapers were Lebanese / Syrian. The people we interacted with spoke great English, but their workers didn't. The big difference is that Canada had constant immigration. They came over 40 years ago and since they had trouble finding employment became entrepreneurs and restaurants and construction and other blue collar services are the most fertile areas for entrepreneurs. Now they have a huge advantage in hiring low cost labor.

breakyerself 8mo ago

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6938108633c7ace9c4a41e42/The_Fiscal_Impact_of_Immigration_Final__1_.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6938108633c7a... https://www.ft.com/content/10daa0e9-d57b-4ccd-9bdc-87d321283398 https://www.ft.com/content/10daa0e9-d57b-4ccd-9bdc-87d321283...

jorvi 8mo ago

That Economist stat often gets misunderstood. It is "net contribution to public finances" (= how much taxes do they pay), not "net contribution to the economy". This is because they are overly represented in low wage jobs, or indeed on longterm welfare. People in the lowest tax brackets pay very little of it. I do agree that there needs to be a honest conversation about what (economic) immigrants offer vs. what they cost, but it needs to be done properly. We will need immigrants because we are below 2.1 in Total Fertility Rate. But, the EU doesn't need to be the comfy life raft of the world as it has been for the past 2-3 decades.