3 ms·

>It is countries like US where anyone can call themselves whatever they feel like that have devalued our profession. How have they devalued the profession when

>It is countries like US where anyone can call themselves whatever they feel like that have devalued our profession. How have they devalued the profession when the labor of that professions is worth the most in the US?

pjmlp 8mo ago
Professional labour value isn't synonymous with late stage capitalism without ethics or morals. Now if you mean for own much one is willing to sell themselves to late stage capitalism, producing low quality products and entshtification, maybe that is the bang for buck right there.
- kortilla 8mo ago
  How do you explain the low quality of software coming out of all of the other countries you have mentioned with protected titles? The software is happening regardless of title and you haven’t given any examples of the value of where kissing the ring to get the certification has been critical to Canada/Germany/Switzerland producing better software.
  - godelski 8mo ago
    Are all programmers called engineers in these countries? You've made such a wild assumption that I'm convinced you're more interested in fighting then discussing
    - kortilla 8mo ago
      No, im looking for literally any evidence that the quality of software that comes from areas that require the protected name is better than something like the NASA coding guidelines.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    There are engineers, and there are brick layers. You mean Android's great quality, or Chrome CVEs by the way?
    - joe_mamba 8mo ago
      Just because you have an engineering degree doesn't mean your code is of better quality and security than someone without an engineering degree. Signed, someone with an CS engineering degree.
      - pjmlp 8mo ago
        It surely means one has the responsibility to be one as such, having had the education that others have not.
        joe_mamba 8mo ago
        Most web dev, gaming jobs don't care about those things, they care if you can ship fast and cheap. There's embedded and safety related SW that need well thought out safeguards but a lot of that slow moving SW has been farmed out to Asia, EE and India.
        kortilla 8mo ago
        No it doesn’t. Getting an engineering degree does not allow you to use the protected title. The protected titles are gate kept by associations and are not tied to knowledge.
    - kortilla 8mo ago
      I mean the quality of people following NASAs C style guidelines. Where is there any evidence that people using the protected title are producing higher quality software than companies in equivalent industries in the US?
- joe_mamba 8mo ago
  >Now if you mean for own much one is willing to sell themselves to late stage capitalism The government is the one selling you out to late stage capitalism through rampant inflation, business and fiscal regulations and deregulation, offshoring, and various nefarious policies on housing and labor migration. People just adapt to survive by taking the best paying jobs, since voting clearly doesn't help them. Don't tell me you're not developing SW for the highest bidder and would take the salary of a fast food worker out of class empathy just to stick it to the evil capitalist.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    That is the difference between the US mentality of the winner takes it all that has given us late stage capitalism, entshitification and Trump, and most of the world. Quality of life and health matters more than anything else. After a certain point, more money doesn't bring any of that, one is not taking the money into the grave, other than build a mausoleum.
    - joe_mamba 8mo ago
      You talk around the issue throwing the blame on others, but you intentionally avoided answering my question, as if you're not part of the problem, and are working for peanuts, virtue signal points and "thank-yous". Sorry but my bank and landlord doesn't accept those, only money and the government makes sure those get more and more expensive.
godelski 8mo ago
If I start calling "bananas" "apples" then I devalue the meaning of the word "apple". You can't differentiate which I'm referring to. If I start calling "bananas" "apples" the price at the store doesn't change. I think you don't understand what the word "value" means. You understand one meaning, but it has more than one.
- drysart 8mo ago
  > If I start calling "bananas" "apples" then I devalue the meaning of the word "apple". You can't differentiate which I'm referring to. In French, potatoes are called what translates to English as "apple of the earth". Nobody confuses a pomme de terre with an apple, because nobody calls a potato an apple without the adjective attached. That's what the additional adjective as part of the title is for; like how apples and potatoes are vaguely related in that they're both plant-based food but are otherwise entirely different; turning "software engineer" into a compound term that has the extra word is specifically to differentiate it from expectations of it not having the extra word. Software engineering is legitimately engineering going by the etymological meaning of engineering; but it's not really one going by some of the other (mostly orthogonal) things we've layered onto the term in many contexts over the years. It's creation through ingenuity. It has as much claim to the word as part of its title as any other usage of the word does.

pjmlp 8mo ago

Professional labour value isn't synonymous with late stage capitalism without ethics or morals. Now if you mean for own much one is willing to sell themselves to late stage capitalism, producing low quality products and entshtification, maybe that is the bang for buck right there.

kortilla 8mo ago
How do you explain the low quality of software coming out of all of the other countries you have mentioned with protected titles? The software is happening regardless of title and you haven’t given any examples of the value of where kissing the ring to get the certification has been critical to Canada/Germany/Switzerland producing better software.
- godelski 8mo ago
  Are all programmers called engineers in these countries? You've made such a wild assumption that I'm convinced you're more interested in fighting then discussing
  - kortilla 8mo ago
    No, im looking for literally any evidence that the quality of software that comes from areas that require the protected name is better than something like the NASA coding guidelines.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  There are engineers, and there are brick layers. You mean Android's great quality, or Chrome CVEs by the way?
  - joe_mamba 8mo ago
    Just because you have an engineering degree doesn't mean your code is of better quality and security than someone without an engineering degree. Signed, someone with an CS engineering degree.
    - pjmlp 8mo ago
      It surely means one has the responsibility to be one as such, having had the education that others have not.
      - joe_mamba 8mo ago
        Most web dev, gaming jobs don't care about those things, they care if you can ship fast and cheap. There's embedded and safety related SW that need well thought out safeguards but a lot of that slow moving SW has been farmed out to Asia, EE and India.
      - kortilla 8mo ago
        No it doesn’t. Getting an engineering degree does not allow you to use the protected title. The protected titles are gate kept by associations and are not tied to knowledge.
  - kortilla 8mo ago
    I mean the quality of people following NASAs C style guidelines. Where is there any evidence that people using the protected title are producing higher quality software than companies in equivalent industries in the US?
joe_mamba 8mo ago
>Now if you mean for own much one is willing to sell themselves to late stage capitalism The government is the one selling you out to late stage capitalism through rampant inflation, business and fiscal regulations and deregulation, offshoring, and various nefarious policies on housing and labor migration. People just adapt to survive by taking the best paying jobs, since voting clearly doesn't help them. Don't tell me you're not developing SW for the highest bidder and would take the salary of a fast food worker out of class empathy just to stick it to the evil capitalist.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  That is the difference between the US mentality of the winner takes it all that has given us late stage capitalism, entshitification and Trump, and most of the world. Quality of life and health matters more than anything else. After a certain point, more money doesn't bring any of that, one is not taking the money into the grave, other than build a mausoleum.
  - joe_mamba 8mo ago
    You talk around the issue throwing the blame on others, but you intentionally avoided answering my question, as if you're not part of the problem, and are working for peanuts, virtue signal points and "thank-yous". Sorry but my bank and landlord doesn't accept those, only money and the government makes sure those get more and more expensive.

godelski 8mo ago

If I start calling "bananas" "apples" then I devalue the meaning of the word "apple". You can't differentiate which I'm referring to. If I start calling "bananas" "apples" the price at the store doesn't change. I think you don't understand what the word "value" means. You understand one meaning, but it has more than one.

drysart 8mo ago
> If I start calling "bananas" "apples" then I devalue the meaning of the word "apple". You can't differentiate which I'm referring to. In French, potatoes are called what translates to English as "apple of the earth". Nobody confuses a pomme de terre with an apple, because nobody calls a potato an apple without the adjective attached. That's what the additional adjective as part of the title is for; like how apples and potatoes are vaguely related in that they're both plant-based food but are otherwise entirely different; turning "software engineer" into a compound term that has the extra word is specifically to differentiate it from expectations of it not having the extra word. Software engineering is legitimately engineering going by the etymological meaning of engineering; but it's not really one going by some of the other (mostly orthogonal) things we've layered onto the term in many contexts over the years. It's creation through ingenuity. It has as much claim to the word as part of its title as any other usage of the word does.