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Does the pledge of allegiance actually do anything? I can't even remember if I did it in school. I first thought "oh, my State must not have done the pledge in

Does the pledge of allegiance actually do anything? I can't even remember if I did it in school. I first thought "oh, my State must not have done the pledge in school", but after more reflection I think I did but just doing remember.

ctoth 8mo ago
Wow, that doesn't terrify you? We're talking about a thing that, if you did it, you would have done at least ~2000 times in a typical 12 years of school. Every morning. Do you remember other school events?
- aaomidi 8mo ago
  Routine stuff actually just fades very easily.
  - ctoth 8mo ago
    Sure sure -- I can't tell you what I ate for dinner on an arbitrary Tuesday or something but a routine thing from 12 years? Knowing whether or not you did that routine at least? Seems like something you should probably remember? I donno I'm only 36 maybe it just gets lots harder from here.
tombert 8mo ago
I went to a grand total of five schools in Florida: one grade school, two middle schools, and two high schools. The first two were in upstate conservative Florida, the last three were in Orlando (which is comparatively more progressive). Every school expected me to say it every morning.
wakawaka28 8mo ago
It reminds kids that they live in the United States, and that the country has values, and that they will be expected to defend the country as part of the social contract. I don't know if other countries have pledges like this but on the surface it seems OK to me. I think it also inspires worthwhile conversations about what we owe to the country (or not).
- embedding-shape 8mo ago
  > that the country has values As I've never said "The Pledge of Allegiance", this seems to be the original one, I'm guessing there might be some other modern variation schools use today, but anyways: > I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I wouldn't be surprised that most people see it as a joke today, given the "with liberty and justice for all" is far from reality today, and it's very obvious to anyone. > I don't know if other countries have pledges like this but on the surface it seems OK to me Generally not, AFAIK. On the surface it seems like blatant propaganda to me, and kind of extremist, something you'd see not in a modern country typically.
  - UncleMeat 8mo ago
    Today it includes "under God" in the text. There are really two values expressed in the pledge. "Liberty and justice for all" and "the nation is below God." I'm happy saying that the former is a national value, though it is rarely achieved in practice. The latter... oof. It is definitely propagandistic. Even if we ignore the religious component, it more expresses an idea that "liberty and justice for all" is already achieved rather than being a goal to strive for.
    - wakawaka28 8mo ago
      I think "liberty and justice for all" is actually the norm in the US, at least within fairly ordinary bounds. We can only have liberty up to a point being under a government. A human living in the wilderness, in anarchy, would also have liberty limited by other humans. You can say "oof" to "under God" but most of the founders believed in the divine and cited it as a reason for granting "god-given" rights to the people. I am an atheist and I kinda don't like the religious aspect of the pledge, but I'm not so upset about it either. Most people believe in a deity, even in 2026, and on the whole I've been treated better by those people than by fellow atheists. Regardless of whether God exists, Christian moral standards are mostly beneficial and too often abandoned when people give up religion. It represents hard-won cultural knowledge and survival strategies for civilization.

ctoth 8mo ago

Wow, that doesn't terrify you? We're talking about a thing that, if you did it, you would have done at least ~2000 times in a typical 12 years of school. Every morning. Do you remember other school events?

aaomidi 8mo ago
Routine stuff actually just fades very easily.
- ctoth 8mo ago
  Sure sure -- I can't tell you what I ate for dinner on an arbitrary Tuesday or something but a routine thing from 12 years? Knowing whether or not you did that routine at least? Seems like something you should probably remember? I donno I'm only 36 maybe it just gets lots harder from here.

tombert 8mo ago

I went to a grand total of five schools in Florida: one grade school, two middle schools, and two high schools. The first two were in upstate conservative Florida, the last three were in Orlando (which is comparatively more progressive). Every school expected me to say it every morning.

wakawaka28 8mo ago

It reminds kids that they live in the United States, and that the country has values, and that they will be expected to defend the country as part of the social contract. I don't know if other countries have pledges like this but on the surface it seems OK to me. I think it also inspires worthwhile conversations about what we owe to the country (or not).

embedding-shape 8mo ago
> that the country has values As I've never said "The Pledge of Allegiance", this seems to be the original one, I'm guessing there might be some other modern variation schools use today, but anyways: > I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I wouldn't be surprised that most people see it as a joke today, given the "with liberty and justice for all" is far from reality today, and it's very obvious to anyone. > I don't know if other countries have pledges like this but on the surface it seems OK to me Generally not, AFAIK. On the surface it seems like blatant propaganda to me, and kind of extremist, something you'd see not in a modern country typically.
- UncleMeat 8mo ago
  Today it includes "under God" in the text. There are really two values expressed in the pledge. "Liberty and justice for all" and "the nation is below God." I'm happy saying that the former is a national value, though it is rarely achieved in practice. The latter... oof. It is definitely propagandistic. Even if we ignore the religious component, it more expresses an idea that "liberty and justice for all" is already achieved rather than being a goal to strive for.
  - wakawaka28 8mo ago
    I think "liberty and justice for all" is actually the norm in the US, at least within fairly ordinary bounds. We can only have liberty up to a point being under a government. A human living in the wilderness, in anarchy, would also have liberty limited by other humans. You can say "oof" to "under God" but most of the founders believed in the divine and cited it as a reason for granting "god-given" rights to the people. I am an atheist and I kinda don't like the religious aspect of the pledge, but I'm not so upset about it either. Most people believe in a deity, even in 2026, and on the whole I've been treated better by those people than by fellow atheists. Regardless of whether God exists, Christian moral standards are mostly beneficial and too often abandoned when people give up religion. It represents hard-won cultural knowledge and survival strategies for civilization.