4 ms·

If I can't use banking or my NFC wallets on my phone, it has become 90% useless. The other 10% of usefulness is texting and calls, which every other phone can d

by 0x1ch 8mo ago

If I can't use banking or my NFC wallets on my phone, it has become 90% useless. The other 10% of usefulness is texting and calls, which every other phone can do. Unfortunately, this mostly means using the closed android ecosystem.

hparadiz 8mo ago
No idea why you are even bringing this up. It works just fine right now.
- 0x1ch 8mo ago
  It verifiably does not on open source and free android roms like Graphene. Unsure where you're getting your info.
  - hparadiz 8mo ago
    No one even brought that up. We're discussing being able to install unsigned/self signed APKs. Please stay on topic and take your strawman elsewhere.
    - 0x1ch 8mo ago
      The ability to install signed and unsigned APKs directly correlates to the financial institution policy regarding mobile devices and banking apps. Unsure how you've separated these two.
  - Pfhortune 8mo ago
    [citation needed] I run GrapheneOS and use several US-based banking apps. I'll not name them since I don't really want my HN account associated with my financials in any way, but I've got a mix of well-known national bank apps and smaller local credit union apps working. I'll admit there is a single institution's app I've found that doesn't work, but that is just one of several that I use.
    - kelnos 8mo ago
      For me, the showstopper would be NFC payments. From what I understand, Google Pay doesn't work on Graphene. I have all my credit cards in GPay, as well as a transit card. I use it for boarding passes when I fly, and any other tickets/passes that support it, since it tends to be much more reliable than the airline or ticketer's app. I've come to heavily rely on it, unfortunately.
      - microtonal 8mo ago
        I haven't tried this, because I try to minimize Google exposure, but I think Google Wallet (minus NFC payments) works on GrapheneOS. So, tickets, boarding passes, etc. should work fine.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    I use GrapheneOS with the Dutch ASN banking app and the ICS credit card app. Pretty much all other major Dutch banks work as well. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... Google Pay does not work, but some other NFC payment apps do (e.g. Curve).
jrm4 8mo ago
To you. Laptops exist.
- pmontra 8mo ago
  This is a common answer but it does not apply to at least most of Europe. Because of regulations most banks require to install their app either on iOS or Android to act as a 2FA device. One of my banks gave me a hardware device 20 years ago. When its battery dies I'll have to use their app and my fingerprint.
  - drnick1 8mo ago
    If you really don't have an alternative in Europe, buy the cheapest Googled Android device (less than $100 or euros), and use that as a glorified 2FA device. It's not ideal because you have to pay for it, but on the other hand Android devices with unlockable bootloaders (mostly Google Pixels now) tend to be cheaper than iThings. A Pixel 9a or 10a running Graphene for everyday use plus a cheap Android phone that stays are home are still considerably cheaper than Apple and Samsung devices, and give the users far more privacy and freedom.
    - hparadiz 8mo ago
      When I was still rooting it was possible to bypass this on a rooted device with enough effort. It wasn't unsecure either. Padentic corporate security doesn't really make us more secure. Just more lazy.
    - microtonal 8mo ago
      Most European banking apps work fine though on a relocked GrapheneOS phone. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... I'm using my GrapheneOS phone to log on to their web app without issues (though I typically only do banking on my phone, much more secure).
    - pmontra 8mo ago
      Yes, that's the endgame, an Android device in a drawer at home. But what do I have to carry on my pocket to use the minimum amount of apps? Firefox, WhatsApp with video and audio calls, Telegram no video no audio, a mail client, a YouTube client (possibly not from YouTube), a maps and navigation app (for cars), phone calls, SMS.
malfist 8mo ago
90% of your usage on your phone is banking apps or NFC payments? That seems hard to believe.
- embedding-shape 8mo ago
  That's pretty much my usage pattern too, including some group texting, the occasional call and sometimes taking photos/videos. Otherwise my phone pretty much stays in my pocket or on my table the entire day. What are you using your phone for that makes that so unbelievable?
  - kelnos 8mo ago
    Web browsing (like right now), photos, e-books, lots of messaging, music, sometimes video. I use NFC payments often, but I wouldn't say that amounts to more than a few percent of my total usage. Everyone uses their phones differently, of course. I don't think your use is unbelievable or odd, but I do think your use patterns are not the common case.
  - iso1631 8mo ago
    I used my bank app yesterday, but since then I've used: whatsapp, phone, push authenticator, safari (having followed a link from a message), spotify, slack, mail, calandar, disney plus and camera Do you not do any of that on a mobile device?
    - embedding-shape 8mo ago
      I do use whatsapp, camera and the phone functionality, web browsing very seldom, mostly for "emergencies". Spotify, work chat, mail, calendar and watching entertainment is all stuff I either do at my desktop or on the TV, never use the phone for those things.
- pluralmonad 8mo ago
  I don't know if it is generational or regional or what, but there is a solid segment of people that live in very close contact with their bank.
drnick1 8mo ago
I run Graphene on my Pixel and banking apps just work. There is no Google Pay, obviously, since Google dependencies have been stripped out from the system. I just carry a credit card.
- tadfisher 8mo ago
  Even with the sandboxed Play Store, Google Pay disables NFC payments as it requires hardware attestation against Google's root keys.
  - hparadiz 8mo ago
    No inherent reason all that stuff can't work on an open platform. It works just fine on my Linux box with yubikeys, fido2, and smart cards. Gcloud even let's you authenticate with them only to put a medium lived token in plaintext into a sqlite file on disk.
    - tadfisher 8mo ago
      No inherent reason, just Visa/Mastercard requirements around host card emulation for payment cards.
      - hparadiz 8mo ago
        Sounds like a duopoly that needs to be broken up.
- rainmaking 8mo ago
  Curve pay works!
- microtonal 8mo ago
  Same, some banks even proactively fix things to work on GrapheneOS when customers ask.
encom 8mo ago
>this mostly means using the closed android ecosystem Maybe, but there's no technical reason for this. As I've mentioned before, I can do banking just fine on my Gentoo machine where the entire corpus of software on it, is FOSS and compiled by myself.

by 0x1ch 8mo ago

hparadiz 8mo ago

No idea why you are even bringing this up. It works just fine right now.

0x1ch 8mo ago
It verifiably does not on open source and free android roms like Graphene. Unsure where you're getting your info.
- hparadiz 8mo ago
  No one even brought that up. We're discussing being able to install unsigned/self signed APKs. Please stay on topic and take your strawman elsewhere.
  - 0x1ch 8mo ago
    The ability to install signed and unsigned APKs directly correlates to the financial institution policy regarding mobile devices and banking apps. Unsure how you've separated these two.
- Pfhortune 8mo ago
  [citation needed] I run GrapheneOS and use several US-based banking apps. I'll not name them since I don't really want my HN account associated with my financials in any way, but I've got a mix of well-known national bank apps and smaller local credit union apps working. I'll admit there is a single institution's app I've found that doesn't work, but that is just one of several that I use.
  - kelnos 8mo ago
    For me, the showstopper would be NFC payments. From what I understand, Google Pay doesn't work on Graphene. I have all my credit cards in GPay, as well as a transit card. I use it for boarding passes when I fly, and any other tickets/passes that support it, since it tends to be much more reliable than the airline or ticketer's app. I've come to heavily rely on it, unfortunately.
    - microtonal 8mo ago
      I haven't tried this, because I try to minimize Google exposure, but I think Google Wallet (minus NFC payments) works on GrapheneOS. So, tickets, boarding passes, etc. should work fine.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  I use GrapheneOS with the Dutch ASN banking app and the ICS credit card app. Pretty much all other major Dutch banks work as well. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... Google Pay does not work, but some other NFC payment apps do (e.g. Curve).

jrm4 8mo ago

To you. Laptops exist.

pmontra 8mo ago
This is a common answer but it does not apply to at least most of Europe. Because of regulations most banks require to install their app either on iOS or Android to act as a 2FA device. One of my banks gave me a hardware device 20 years ago. When its battery dies I'll have to use their app and my fingerprint.
- drnick1 8mo ago
  If you really don't have an alternative in Europe, buy the cheapest Googled Android device (less than $100 or euros), and use that as a glorified 2FA device. It's not ideal because you have to pay for it, but on the other hand Android devices with unlockable bootloaders (mostly Google Pixels now) tend to be cheaper than iThings. A Pixel 9a or 10a running Graphene for everyday use plus a cheap Android phone that stays are home are still considerably cheaper than Apple and Samsung devices, and give the users far more privacy and freedom.
  - hparadiz 8mo ago
    When I was still rooting it was possible to bypass this on a rooted device with enough effort. It wasn't unsecure either. Padentic corporate security doesn't really make us more secure. Just more lazy.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    Most European banking apps work fine though on a relocked GrapheneOS phone. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... I'm using my GrapheneOS phone to log on to their web app without issues (though I typically only do banking on my phone, much more secure).
  - pmontra 8mo ago
    Yes, that's the endgame, an Android device in a drawer at home. But what do I have to carry on my pocket to use the minimum amount of apps? Firefox, WhatsApp with video and audio calls, Telegram no video no audio, a mail client, a YouTube client (possibly not from YouTube), a maps and navigation app (for cars), phone calls, SMS.

malfist 8mo ago

90% of your usage on your phone is banking apps or NFC payments? That seems hard to believe.

embedding-shape 8mo ago
That's pretty much my usage pattern too, including some group texting, the occasional call and sometimes taking photos/videos. Otherwise my phone pretty much stays in my pocket or on my table the entire day. What are you using your phone for that makes that so unbelievable?
- kelnos 8mo ago
  Web browsing (like right now), photos, e-books, lots of messaging, music, sometimes video. I use NFC payments often, but I wouldn't say that amounts to more than a few percent of my total usage. Everyone uses their phones differently, of course. I don't think your use is unbelievable or odd, but I do think your use patterns are not the common case.
- iso1631 8mo ago
  I used my bank app yesterday, but since then I've used: whatsapp, phone, push authenticator, safari (having followed a link from a message), spotify, slack, mail, calandar, disney plus and camera Do you not do any of that on a mobile device?
  - embedding-shape 8mo ago
    I do use whatsapp, camera and the phone functionality, web browsing very seldom, mostly for "emergencies". Spotify, work chat, mail, calendar and watching entertainment is all stuff I either do at my desktop or on the TV, never use the phone for those things.
pluralmonad 8mo ago
I don't know if it is generational or regional or what, but there is a solid segment of people that live in very close contact with their bank.

drnick1 8mo ago

I run Graphene on my Pixel and banking apps just work. There is no Google Pay, obviously, since Google dependencies have been stripped out from the system. I just carry a credit card.

tadfisher 8mo ago
Even with the sandboxed Play Store, Google Pay disables NFC payments as it requires hardware attestation against Google's root keys.
- hparadiz 8mo ago
  No inherent reason all that stuff can't work on an open platform. It works just fine on my Linux box with yubikeys, fido2, and smart cards. Gcloud even let's you authenticate with them only to put a medium lived token in plaintext into a sqlite file on disk.
  - tadfisher 8mo ago
    No inherent reason, just Visa/Mastercard requirements around host card emulation for payment cards.
    - hparadiz 8mo ago
      Sounds like a duopoly that needs to be broken up.
rainmaking 8mo ago
Curve pay works!
microtonal 8mo ago
Same, some banks even proactively fix things to work on GrapheneOS when customers ask.

encom 8mo ago

>this mostly means using the closed android ecosystem Maybe, but there's no technical reason for this. As I've mentioned before, I can do banking just fine on my Gentoo machine where the entire corpus of software on it, is FOSS and compiled by myself.