5 ms·

>pretty reasonable It starts out small. Then before you know the language is total shit. Python is a good example. I am observing a very distinguishable pheno

by qsera 8mo ago

>pretty reasonable It starts out small. Then before you know the language is total shit. Python is a good example. I am observing a very distinguishable phenomenon when internet makes very shallow ideas mainstream and ruin many many good things that stood the test of time. I am not saying this is one of those instances, but what the parent comment makes sense to me. You can see another comment who now wants to go further and want destructors in C. Because of internet, such voices can now reach out to each other, gather and cause a change. But before, such voices would have to go through a lot of sensible heads before they would be able to reach each other. In other words, bad ideas got snuffed early before internet, but now they go mainstream easily. So you see, it starts out slow, but then more and more stuff gets added which diverges more and more from the point.

duckerude 8mo ago
That comment is saying to use C++, not to add destructors to C.
Galanwe 8mo ago
I get your point, though in the specific case of defer, looks like we both agree it's really a good move. No more spaghetti of goto err_*; in complex initialization functions.
- qsera 8mo ago
  >we both agree it's really a good move Actually I am not sure I do. It seems to me that even though `defer` is more explicit than destructors, it still falls under "spooky action at a distance" category.
  - Galanwe 8mo ago
    I don't understand why destructors enter the discussion. This is C, there is no destructors. Are you comparing "adding destructors to C" vs "adding defer to C"? The former would be bring so much in C that it wouldn't be C anymore. And if your point is "you should switch to C++ to get destructors", then it seems out of topic. By very definition, if we're talking about language X and your answer is "switch to Y", this is an entirely different subject, of very few interest to people programming in X.
    - qsera 8mo ago
      Sorry, I had some other thread that involved destructors in my head. But the point is `defer` is still in "spooky action at a distance" category that I generally don't want in programming languages, especially in c.
      - Galanwe 8mo ago
        > `defer` is still in "spooky action at a distance" category Agree, this is also why I'm a bit weary of it. What brings me on the "pro" side is that, defer or not defer, there will need to be some kind of cleanup anyway. It's just a matter of where it is declared, and close to the acquisition is arguably better. The caveat IMHO is that if a codebase is not consistent in its use, it could be worst.
      - array_key_first 8mo ago
        But the real-world alternatives that people use are: 1. goto, which is "spooky action at a distance" to the nth degree. It's not even safe, you can goto anywhere, even out of scope. 2. cleanup attributes, which are not standard.
        qsera 8mo ago
        >goto, which is "spooky action at a distance" to the nth degree. it is not.
        array_key_first 8mo ago
        It is, just the existence of goto makes control flow significantly harder to understand. People complain about exceptions in C++ obfuscating control flow, but then they recreate exceptions using goto. The funny thing is that exceptions are just fancy goto, the assembly is almost the same. The bigger picture of C as a language is not that it's simple, because it's not simple at all. It's inept. It doesn't give developers the tools to write simple code. So easy things become hard, and we sort of jank together solutions that kind of work but usually don't. I like to compare it to building a shed with power tools versus only a screwdriver. Is a screwdriver simpler than a power saw and all that? Of course. Now think about building a shed. Is it simpler to do with a screwdriver? No. It's much, much more complex. You have to develop complex processes to make that work, and it's not intuitive at all. C is a language that already makes use of implicit control flow A LOT. I don't see defer being a problem. The irony is that if C just supported these use cases out-of-the-box, it would be simpler and easier. As a concrete example, consider polymorphism in C versus C++. Both languages can do it, but one provides the tools and one doesn't. In C++ I can go to definition, I can concretely define what polymorphism is allowed and what isn't, and the type system gives me the tools to make it safe. In C, none of that is true, so when we do polymorphism with function pointers, it's much harder to understand what's actually going on, or what could be going on.
ubercore 8mo ago
Modern Python is great :shrug:

by qsera 8mo ago

duckerude 8mo ago

That comment is saying to use C++, not to add destructors to C.

Galanwe 8mo ago

I get your point, though in the specific case of defer, looks like we both agree it's really a good move. No more spaghetti of goto err_*; in complex initialization functions.

qsera 8mo ago
>we both agree it's really a good move Actually I am not sure I do. It seems to me that even though `defer` is more explicit than destructors, it still falls under "spooky action at a distance" category.
- Galanwe 8mo ago
  I don't understand why destructors enter the discussion. This is C, there is no destructors. Are you comparing "adding destructors to C" vs "adding defer to C"? The former would be bring so much in C that it wouldn't be C anymore. And if your point is "you should switch to C++ to get destructors", then it seems out of topic. By very definition, if we're talking about language X and your answer is "switch to Y", this is an entirely different subject, of very few interest to people programming in X.
  - qsera 8mo ago
    Sorry, I had some other thread that involved destructors in my head. But the point is `defer` is still in "spooky action at a distance" category that I generally don't want in programming languages, especially in c.
    - Galanwe 8mo ago
      > `defer` is still in "spooky action at a distance" category Agree, this is also why I'm a bit weary of it. What brings me on the "pro" side is that, defer or not defer, there will need to be some kind of cleanup anyway. It's just a matter of where it is declared, and close to the acquisition is arguably better. The caveat IMHO is that if a codebase is not consistent in its use, it could be worst.
    - array_key_first 8mo ago
      But the real-world alternatives that people use are: 1. goto, which is "spooky action at a distance" to the nth degree. It's not even safe, you can goto anywhere, even out of scope. 2. cleanup attributes, which are not standard.
      - qsera 8mo ago
        >goto, which is "spooky action at a distance" to the nth degree. it is not.
        array_key_first 8mo ago
        It is, just the existence of goto makes control flow significantly harder to understand. People complain about exceptions in C++ obfuscating control flow, but then they recreate exceptions using goto. The funny thing is that exceptions are just fancy goto, the assembly is almost the same. The bigger picture of C as a language is not that it's simple, because it's not simple at all. It's inept. It doesn't give developers the tools to write simple code. So easy things become hard, and we sort of jank together solutions that kind of work but usually don't. I like to compare it to building a shed with power tools versus only a screwdriver. Is a screwdriver simpler than a power saw and all that? Of course. Now think about building a shed. Is it simpler to do with a screwdriver? No. It's much, much more complex. You have to develop complex processes to make that work, and it's not intuitive at all. C is a language that already makes use of implicit control flow A LOT. I don't see defer being a problem. The irony is that if C just supported these use cases out-of-the-box, it would be simpler and easier. As a concrete example, consider polymorphism in C versus C++. Both languages can do it, but one provides the tools and one doesn't. In C++ I can go to definition, I can concretely define what polymorphism is allowed and what isn't, and the type system gives me the tools to make it safe. In C, none of that is true, so when we do polymorphism with function pointers, it's much harder to understand what's actually going on, or what could be going on.

ubercore 8mo ago

Modern Python is great :shrug: