4 ms·
And lies.
by Mikhail_Edoshin 8mo ago
And lies.
- b112 8mo agoAnd truth.
- MASNeo 8mo agoWorse, half-truths and half-lies.
- gdubya 8mo agoAh, a new "WTF": Worse Than False!
- GoblinSlayer 8mo agoThat's why diversity of sources is the only way to escape censorship: you get one half truth from one source, another half truth from another source, then two halves make whole truth.
- ben_w 8mo agoThat's also trivial to manipulate; control the narrative, and you control the Overton window. People picking the middle of two fake options are still under the influence of whoever chose those options — just ask any stage magician.
- GoblinSlayer 8mo agoNarrative is controlled by censorship.
- ben_w 8mo agoAnd/or propaganda. Everyone can feel censorship, everyone can learn what they're punished for saying. Propaganda, though, that can feel like learning, like personal growth and development. If censorship comes with a stick, propaganda is a carrot. And today, we have as much of a problem with metaphorical obesity as with literal obesity.
- GoblinSlayer 8mo agoPropaganda works when it's the only source of information. This situation is created by censorship, especially in internets, where you don't need to walk to open a distant site.
- ben_w 8mo agoPropaganda *also* works when it's the main source of information. This can be done in many ways. One way is simple repetition of the exact same thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect Another is to have many different lies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_the_zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_the_zone and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood Taking a step back, there is another way for propaganda to function that doesn't even require being the main source, but simply to make the lie so huge that people can't process the idea someone would be *that* level of dishonest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie Consider your own previous comment: > you get one half truth from one source, another half truth from another source, then two halves make whole truth. What happens when one source says that the Alpha Party* consists of child-eating devil-worshiping lizards from Alpha Ceti 5 who caused the 9/11 attacks to cover up how the mind-control chemtrail fluid they were making in the WTC burned hot enough to melt steel beams, and the other source says the Alpha Party is standing on a platform of reducing the tax burden on hard-working families? The latter can be a half-truth, but you don't get even a little closer to a full truth by adding any part of the "other side". * A made-up party, any similarities to actual persons is coincidence and all the usual disclaimer.
- GoblinSlayer 8mo agoYour links give examples of campaigns that happened, but didn't quite work. You think the problem is their very happening? And the very fact that you know about child-eating devil-worshiping lizards from Alpha Ceti 5 shows that an opinion is available no matter what propaganda you use against it as long as it's not censored. You can suppress it only by censorship, not by propaganda. In any case using shitposting sites as a source of information is tricky, journalism isn't that bad yet.
- intended 8mo agoThis was the old world. In our world narrative control is not by restrictions, but by abundance. Flood the zone writ large.
- GoblinSlayer 8mo agoIf you don't know other sources, they are of no help for you indeed, but censorship does worsen the situation.
- locknitpicker 8mo ago> That's why diversity of sources is the only way to escape censorship: No, it's a page out of the old fascist playbook where flooding the stage with propaganda generates enough confusion to help fascists further their hateful agenda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- account42 8mo agoFascism means diversity of opinions, democracy means everyone is only allowed to have the opinions you want them to have?
- ben_w 8mo agoFascists in the original sense, Mussolini, didn't tolerate opposition. I'm not sure about modern fascists, but US politics does look rather Kayfabe-y to me. Fake opposition, there for the purpose of being an opponent. Of course then you get all the discourse about what even counts as fascism, and someone brings up that the origin of the word is the Roman "fasces" (bundle of sticks) and how that etymological root points to the concept of "strength through unity" which is also why the Lincoln memorial has Lincoln resting his hands on them[0] and why trade unions often use the "strength through unity" phrasing (and get annoyed/upset by the connection). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lincoln_Memorial_statue_at_night_2011.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lincoln_Memorial_statue_a...
- joe463369 8mo agoDemocracy is having the laws Americans approve of, because God wrote their Constitution.
- refurb 8mo agoI find it hilarious when people who are pro censorship bring up Karl Popper and the Paradox of Tolerance. You can tell they've never read his work because his conclusion in the end is that you should tolerate intolerance up and until it promotes specific violence. So total freedom of speech up and until it starts inciting violence. It's basically the same stance the US Constitution has.
- intended 8mo agoThis assumes you have the cognitive resources to do that. Most people just switch to someone they trust to avoid exactly this. Matter of fact, that was the major advantage of the net back in the day.
- GoblinSlayer 8mo agoI think people have to deal with pluralism of opinions in everyday life too, since different people have different opinions. Aren't they socially maladapted if they can't do that?
- LtWorf 8mo agoBut RT is banned in most of europe
- ekjhgkejhgk 8mo agoYou don't have to worry about projecting truth. The truth gets through. This is about projecting lies.
- backscratches 8mo agoTruth does not get through.
- ben_w 8mo ago> The truth gets through. It often doesn't at all, drowned amongst lies. And sometimes it takes a lifetime or two. It took Boris Yeltsin, who had just become the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union, actually visiting a random grocery store in Houston before he realised what the truth was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_visit_by_Boris_Yeltsin_to_the_United_States#Grocery_store_visit_in_Houston https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_visit_by_Boris_Yeltsin_to...
- snowpid 8mo agomost common people were aware of the cliff in economy between capitalist and communist states. Hence we had so many revolution and communism lost. This was a communist apparatchik. Its like showing truth to MAGA people. Most wont accept it.
- ben_w 8mo ago> Its like showing truth to MAGA people. Most wont accept it. Could be. That was the other example I was considering using besides Yeltsin, but I figured it would immediately get met with "no u" responses from those who, as you say, won't accept it. That makes for boring conversations where I learn nothing.
- snowpid 8mo agosee it this way. Yelzin's reaction was very surprising. You can see how other communist burocrats reacted to facts. Even in democratic societies politicians don't change their beliefs so fast (maybe most human?). But luckily we can vote them out so this is not a big problem.
- locknitpicker 8mo ago> And truth. The world is yet to find a single piece of truth coming out of the Trump administration. I mean, shall we discuss how Trump claims the Epstein files exonerate him when he is reported as directly, deeply, and personally involved in every single gruesome aspect of the criminal organization?
- asgeesg 8mo ago[dead]
- bayindirh 8mo ago> > And lies. > And truth. In short, propaganda. Propaganda (noun): Propaganda is communication that is primarily used to influence or persuade an audience to further an agenda, which may not be objective and may be selectively presenting facts to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is being presented. Propaganda can be found in a wide variety of different contexts.[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
- lostmsu 8mo agoAnd regular people talking their mind
- weregiraffe 8mo agoThis definition is so broad it basically encompasses all communication.
- calgoo 8mo agoI mean, in a way, all communication is propaganda. Its one person or group trying to influence you with their information.
- bayindirh 8mo agoI don't think so. I strive to lay the facts out neutrally so people can decide what to do with that information, even if the outcome is not ideal for me. Preventing non-ideal outcomes is not about lying, but not doing things you might regret in the future. This is why I'm no politician, though.
- squigz 8mo agoHow would you define it?
- ben_w 8mo agoAll communication that is primarily used to influence or persuade an audience to further an agenda, yes. There's also debate and ego-less teaching for the sake of truth-seeking.