4 ms·

Why Do the Police Exist? (2020)

13 points by robtherobber 8mo ago

bediger4000 8mo ago
When conservatives were busy freaking out about the slogan "defund the police", I thought a little bit about that slogan. Every interaction I, a white middle class Midwestern, have had with police has been either to my detriment (traffic tickets mostly) or had zero good effects. I've had bicycles and even a car stolen. The first thing out of the cop's mouth was "you're never going to see that again". What benefit do police (as an institution) supply? Witnessing traffic accidents so insurance companies can decide who pays seems to be the big one.
- ge96 8mo ago
  > What benefit do police (as an institution) supply This is one of those bad topics to talk about but to me it seems obvious. If there were no laws to prevent people from stealing, killing each other, you wouldn't have society. Yes you have bicycles/car stolen but I would think it would be a lot worse. I don't agree with that ACAB saying but I think people who haven't lived in a bad place say that. But I also am aware of racism/stereotyping it's funny you mention being white as yeah it's worse for not being white.
  - c22 8mo ago
    >If there were no laws to prevent people from stealing, killing each other, you wouldn't have society. Laws are even less capable of preventing these things than police! What actually prevents these things is social homogenization, equality, and shared community goals and experiences.
    - robtherobber 8mo ago
      Indeed. Comes to mind an expression from one of my professors, "laws are to keep honest people honest, just like doors; should someone not care about those, they can easily break them - most of the time without consequences". Because most criminals are not caught or investigated.
- davidguetta 8mo ago
  The price of your stolen bike is order of magnitude lower than the amount of time / money the police force would spend tracking it. It's supposed to be here for more serious matters.
  - Ancapistani 8mo ago
    Great - then they should simply write him a check to reimburse him, right?
    - davidguetta 8mo ago
      nobody said "police will prevent all crime" in theory it's "some crime, starting with the most important"
  - unsnap_biceps 8mo ago
    There's a valid argument that allowing petty crime to fester encourages people to grow into more serious crimes. I live in a small town and the police do have the resources to investigate stolen bikes, and stolen bikes happen, but it's rare enough that people often don't lock up their bikes when they're in the town center. Granted, there's a rate of return issue here that the cities will struggle with, but for the small town forces, it's worth their time to keep petty crime down IMHO.
  - bediger4000 8mo ago
    It was still a crime, right? If price tag is what matters, then the cops are just there to serve and protect the oligarchs. Which has been my experience, which leads me to ask why I'm paying taxes to have a security force for the wealthy.
    - davidguetta 8mo ago
      they have limited time and ressources. imagine youre a cop you come on the morning and you have the choice between investigating: - a murder - a organized crime situation - a stolen bike (with basically 0 chance of finding them since they end up in africa in 24h anyway typically)
- hagbard_c 8mo ago
  Remember the 'CHOP/CHAZ' [1] fiasco during the 'Summer of Love' in 2020 [2]? That is where you end up if there is no police. Instead of a Kumbayah around the campfire you get some warlord-like individual who proclaims himself Lord of the Domain and anyone who crosses him gets to find out why 'abolishing the police' was a bad idea. Does this mean that the police is always right? No, of course not, that is one of the many things wrong with the 'Die Partei hat immer recht' (German for The party is always right, part of the lyrics of the national anthem of the German 'Democratic' Republic [3]) philosophy. Nobody is always right and any power is there to be abused by those willing and able to do so. That's why there is oversight of those in power which - admittedly - isn't always as effective as it should be. [1] https://www.historylink.org/File/22870 https://www.historylink.org/File/22870 [2] https://reasonabletv.com/podcast/chop_s_deadly_legacy__5_years/ https://reasonabletv.com/podcast/chop_s_deadly_legacy__5_yea... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_IbCMOg9YA&t=18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_IbCMOg9YA&t=18
  - c22 8mo ago
    I lived in the 'CHOP' during this time period and encountered no warlords nor any friction in going about my day to day business. There were a couple nights when police used teargas outside my house and I had to close all my windows.
    - Grum9 8mo ago
      [dead]
- pipes 8mo ago
  Here is an example of what happens when there are no police, Montreal police strike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot
sjducb 8mo ago
There used to be county lines drug dealing outside my house. County lines drug dealing is where organised gangs in London send people out to deal drugs in small towns outside London. It’s obvious because of the race of the people involved. 2 years ago the police did a massive crackdown and the county lines drug dealers disappeared. County lines drug dealers haven’t come back and now there is no obvious public drug dealing in my neighbourhood. The police do a difficult job and they are fantastic at it. https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/over-1-800-arrested-with-245-drug-lines-shutdown-during-crackdown-targeting-county-line-drug-dealers-and-1-600-people-safeguarded https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/over-1-800-arrested-wit...
- davidguetta 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - unsnap_biceps 8mo ago
    I'm traditionally conservative and have many law enforcement in my extended family. Law enforcement is very required for society, but it's a blunt tool. There are classes of crime that will not be reduced no matter how many people you put in jail. Mental health and addiction issues (often they go hand in hand) really should be solved differently than just jail time. My small town has a swat team and two bear cats. They've never been used outside of training. They're very likely never going to be used outside of training. This is a ton of money that the police justified by "If we don't spend it, we lose it". That's not fiscally responsible and it's something as a conservative we do need to push back on and some of that involves defunding the police's overly excessive budgets and reducing taxes or at least reallocating it towards other social programs that will help beyond just locking people up.
    - sjducb 8mo ago
      Agreed that sounds like wasteful spending. When that SWAT team finally gets a callout they’re going to go hard and use excessive force. The US spends 135 billion on its police force so some wasteful spending is going to happen. Defund the police people would spend that money on something unrelated to law enforcement. I would spend it on something useful and law enforcement related like more training for officers.
cenobyte 8mo ago
The author of this article is so stupid it hurts just to read it.

13 points by robtherobber 8mo ago

When conservatives were busy freaking out about the slogan "defund the police", I thought a little bit about that slogan. Every interaction I, a white middle class Midwestern, have had with police has been either to my detriment (traffic tickets mostly) or had zero good effects. I've had bicycles and even a car stolen. The first thing out of the cop's mouth was "you're never going to see that again". What benefit do police (as an institution) supply? Witnessing traffic accidents so insurance companies can decide who pays seems to be the big one.

ge96 8mo ago
> What benefit do police (as an institution) supply This is one of those bad topics to talk about but to me it seems obvious. If there were no laws to prevent people from stealing, killing each other, you wouldn't have society. Yes you have bicycles/car stolen but I would think it would be a lot worse. I don't agree with that ACAB saying but I think people who haven't lived in a bad place say that. But I also am aware of racism/stereotyping it's funny you mention being white as yeah it's worse for not being white.
- c22 8mo ago
  >If there were no laws to prevent people from stealing, killing each other, you wouldn't have society. Laws are even less capable of preventing these things than police! What actually prevents these things is social homogenization, equality, and shared community goals and experiences.
  - robtherobber 8mo ago
    Indeed. Comes to mind an expression from one of my professors, "laws are to keep honest people honest, just like doors; should someone not care about those, they can easily break them - most of the time without consequences". Because most criminals are not caught or investigated.
davidguetta 8mo ago
The price of your stolen bike is order of magnitude lower than the amount of time / money the police force would spend tracking it. It's supposed to be here for more serious matters.
- Ancapistani 8mo ago
  Great - then they should simply write him a check to reimburse him, right?
  - davidguetta 8mo ago
    nobody said "police will prevent all crime" in theory it's "some crime, starting with the most important"
- unsnap_biceps 8mo ago
  There's a valid argument that allowing petty crime to fester encourages people to grow into more serious crimes. I live in a small town and the police do have the resources to investigate stolen bikes, and stolen bikes happen, but it's rare enough that people often don't lock up their bikes when they're in the town center. Granted, there's a rate of return issue here that the cities will struggle with, but for the small town forces, it's worth their time to keep petty crime down IMHO.
- bediger4000 8mo ago
  It was still a crime, right? If price tag is what matters, then the cops are just there to serve and protect the oligarchs. Which has been my experience, which leads me to ask why I'm paying taxes to have a security force for the wealthy.
  - davidguetta 8mo ago
    they have limited time and ressources. imagine youre a cop you come on the morning and you have the choice between investigating: - a murder - a organized crime situation - a stolen bike (with basically 0 chance of finding them since they end up in africa in 24h anyway typically)
hagbard_c 8mo ago
Remember the 'CHOP/CHAZ' [1] fiasco during the 'Summer of Love' in 2020 [2]? That is where you end up if there is no police. Instead of a Kumbayah around the campfire you get some warlord-like individual who proclaims himself Lord of the Domain and anyone who crosses him gets to find out why 'abolishing the police' was a bad idea. Does this mean that the police is always right? No, of course not, that is one of the many things wrong with the 'Die Partei hat immer recht' (German for The party is always right, part of the lyrics of the national anthem of the German 'Democratic' Republic [3]) philosophy. Nobody is always right and any power is there to be abused by those willing and able to do so. That's why there is oversight of those in power which - admittedly - isn't always as effective as it should be. [1] https://www.historylink.org/File/22870 https://www.historylink.org/File/22870 [2] https://reasonabletv.com/podcast/chop_s_deadly_legacy__5_years/ https://reasonabletv.com/podcast/chop_s_deadly_legacy__5_yea... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_IbCMOg9YA&t=18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_IbCMOg9YA&t=18
- c22 8mo ago
  I lived in the 'CHOP' during this time period and encountered no warlords nor any friction in going about my day to day business. There were a couple nights when police used teargas outside my house and I had to close all my windows.
  - Grum9 8mo ago
    [dead]
pipes 8mo ago
Here is an example of what happens when there are no police, Montreal police strike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot

sjducb 8mo ago

There used to be county lines drug dealing outside my house. County lines drug dealing is where organised gangs in London send people out to deal drugs in small towns outside London. It’s obvious because of the race of the people involved. 2 years ago the police did a massive crackdown and the county lines drug dealers disappeared. County lines drug dealers haven’t come back and now there is no obvious public drug dealing in my neighbourhood. The police do a difficult job and they are fantastic at it. https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/over-1-800-arrested-with-245-drug-lines-shutdown-during-crackdown-targeting-county-line-drug-dealers-and-1-600-people-safeguarded https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/over-1-800-arrested-wit...

davidguetta 8mo ago
[flagged]
- unsnap_biceps 8mo ago
  I'm traditionally conservative and have many law enforcement in my extended family. Law enforcement is very required for society, but it's a blunt tool. There are classes of crime that will not be reduced no matter how many people you put in jail. Mental health and addiction issues (often they go hand in hand) really should be solved differently than just jail time. My small town has a swat team and two bear cats. They've never been used outside of training. They're very likely never going to be used outside of training. This is a ton of money that the police justified by "If we don't spend it, we lose it". That's not fiscally responsible and it's something as a conservative we do need to push back on and some of that involves defunding the police's overly excessive budgets and reducing taxes or at least reallocating it towards other social programs that will help beyond just locking people up.
  - sjducb 8mo ago
    Agreed that sounds like wasteful spending. When that SWAT team finally gets a callout they’re going to go hard and use excessive force. The US spends 135 billion on its police force so some wasteful spending is going to happen. Defund the police people would spend that money on something unrelated to law enforcement. I would spend it on something useful and law enforcement related like more training for officers.

cenobyte 8mo ago

The author of this article is so stupid it hurts just to read it.