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I'm not normally given to "conspiracy theory", but .. this feels coordinated, right? Quite possibly by the age verification vendors, or some shadier intelligenc

by pjc50 9mo ago

I'm not normally given to "conspiracy theory", but .. this feels coordinated, right? Quite possibly by the age verification vendors, or some shadier intelligence service sockpuppeting them? It's just so rare for so many governments to simultaneously, suddenly, after so many years of social media agree that it's a problem on the scale of chloroflurocarbons.

squeefers 9mo ago
its because of hysteria. same thing happened with tv. some girl in england killed herself after she herself had been searching out suicide content, the algo obviously suggests it back to her and because of that we basically got the Online Child Safety act. Whos going to tell grieving parents the kid did it to herself?
- pjc50 9mo ago
  > the algo obviously suggests it back to her Pro-suicide content has been a thing since the days of USENET. It's been a (lesser) problem on social media since the start. Is it really just that one case got over the hysteria threshold? But yes, if the algorithm is suggesting pro-suicide content then the developers are morally, if not legally, liable for that and should expect some consequences. I note that one of the few taboos maintained by the otherwise grossly irresponsible UK media is not reporting on suicide (because this is known to be a trigger). You might see "famous musician died suddenly at a young age" and have to connect the dots yourself.
  - squeefers 9mo ago
    > But yes, if the algorithm is suggesting pro-suicide content then the developers are morally, if not legally, if she hadnt searched for it herself, it wouldnt have suggested it. the parents (understandly) want to blame someone for it. politics is emotion, not logic.
    - hackable_sand 9mo ago
      Politics is also logic
    - pjc50 9mo ago
      > if she hadnt searched for it herself, it wouldnt have suggested it That is not an excuse for suggesting it.
      - squeefers 9mo ago
        i mean, it kind of is. do they similarly blame chrome for showing suicide content in her auto-complete? this would have never happened if the girl hadnt searched for it herself. and if this suicide content is so powerful, how come everyone who reads it isnt killing themselves? i suspect to search for suicide content, she may well have been suicidal. a bold accusation, i know
greatgib 9mo ago
Sadly it shows that there is really a kind of "world order" conspiracy, and it is not conspiracy theorists that are crazy as we always assumed. Just have a look at Epstein files, you can see that a lot of "occidental" politics and business leaders were connected to him one way or another. You see that we don't have equal rights but some get privileged info about big financial changes that could help them grow their wealth. Look at how hard we had to fight Microsoft contracts creeping in everywhere in public institutions and schools, when you see in background that Microsoft was spending billions organizing events, gifts, ... to "legally" bribe officials. Now we can all see that there is a big dictatorial shift in the political leaders of occidental countries that used to be lands of freedom and rights. Politics see that they are unpopular and there is an uproar of the population to have change, but on the other side they see that a lot of dictatorial countries are able to control their population and stay in power using liberty restriction regulations (China, N Korea, Russia, Arabian countries, ...). So they are going to do the same. And the best way for them to support such reduction in freedom for populations is to bound together to do it together: - One "western" country leader that would instigate censorship, and reducing freedom and privacy right would be seen too clearly as abusing and on a dictatorial trend. - But if multiple of them push for that at the same time, it might more easily be seen as "for the greater good", because they are the "free countries"... So sad that the second world war is so far away, almost everyone forgot what happened in the years before the Nazi took control of Germany and started the obvious horrors. But we are on the same path. Putin's Russia is also a good example of how a country that was on the verge of freedom and liberty for its population, slowly but surely shifted to the current dictatorial state. All of that without a clear "revolution" or sudden shift. And officially it is still a "democratic" country...
- cedws 9mo ago
  Well said. Freedom only ratchets one way, we always lose freedom until something monumental happens to reset. Something on the scale of a world war or revolution. The bureaucrats cooking up these laws never loosen the cuffs.
hulitu 9mo ago
> this feels coordinated, right? Yes. Like most of the "news". Google, Meta, Microsoft and Apple really need your personal data.
stuaxo 9mo ago
Yes, the 5rights Foundation + their backers are behind the age verification bits and probably the social media ban, I have no idea what their destination is or how far they will take their prohibition. They work with other orgs, e.g. Fairplay (formerly CCFC) in the US.
cedws 9mo ago
My pet theory is that consciously or unconsciously, democracies are being forced into identifying individuals behind speech online and controlling certain ideas. The status quo is a vulnerability, it makes it too easy for adversaries to manipulate public opinion and sway elections. China and Russia have no such vulnerability. No doubt social media for children is a bad thing, but this is just a convenient excuse to make you hand over your ID.
- iamnothere 9mo ago
  It’s called “managed democracy” (or guided democracy apparently) and it’s what happens when a democracy decays into authoritarian governance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy There is also the related term “defensive democracy”, supposedly different but in practice the end result is the same. In both cases the democratic process is failing to achieve the results desired by those in power, so forceful intervention is used to steer future results.
  - cedws 9mo ago
    Thanks, I wasn’t aware of this term.
  - robocat 9mo ago
    Voting em out: I reckon the hidden key to democracy, is being able to vote disliked politicians out. Managed democracy seems fine so long as you can remove the bastards if they become Putin-like. There's a lot of hot air about democracy being voting for parties or politicians for the policies we like. Personally I have never felt that I've ever positively influenced policy with my voting. I have voted against a party because I disliked their policy, but that counterfactual is harder to judge (either my vote loses, or the policy doesn't occur : either way it is unclear if my vote mattered?). I'm rather cynical about democracy - it feels mostly like children's participation awards (which are great!).
coffeefirst 9mo ago
Jonathan Haidt. It’s not a shadowy conspiracy, it’s that all the teachers, parents, and the kids themselves agreed with him.
nmfisher 9mo ago
The less conspiratorial view is that the Australian government was the first to actually legislate it. Much easier for everyone else to follow in someone else's footsteps rather than being the first to take the plunge.

by pjc50 9mo ago

squeefers 9mo ago

its because of hysteria. same thing happened with tv. some girl in england killed herself after she herself had been searching out suicide content, the algo obviously suggests it back to her and because of that we basically got the Online Child Safety act. Whos going to tell grieving parents the kid did it to herself?

pjc50 9mo ago
> the algo obviously suggests it back to her Pro-suicide content has been a thing since the days of USENET. It's been a (lesser) problem on social media since the start. Is it really just that one case got over the hysteria threshold? But yes, if the algorithm is suggesting pro-suicide content then the developers are morally, if not legally, liable for that and should expect some consequences. I note that one of the few taboos maintained by the otherwise grossly irresponsible UK media is not reporting on suicide (because this is known to be a trigger). You might see "famous musician died suddenly at a young age" and have to connect the dots yourself.
- squeefers 9mo ago
  > But yes, if the algorithm is suggesting pro-suicide content then the developers are morally, if not legally, if she hadnt searched for it herself, it wouldnt have suggested it. the parents (understandly) want to blame someone for it. politics is emotion, not logic.
  - hackable_sand 9mo ago
    Politics is also logic
  - pjc50 9mo ago
    > if she hadnt searched for it herself, it wouldnt have suggested it That is not an excuse for suggesting it.
    - squeefers 9mo ago
      i mean, it kind of is. do they similarly blame chrome for showing suicide content in her auto-complete? this would have never happened if the girl hadnt searched for it herself. and if this suicide content is so powerful, how come everyone who reads it isnt killing themselves? i suspect to search for suicide content, she may well have been suicidal. a bold accusation, i know

greatgib 9mo ago

Sadly it shows that there is really a kind of "world order" conspiracy, and it is not conspiracy theorists that are crazy as we always assumed. Just have a look at Epstein files, you can see that a lot of "occidental" politics and business leaders were connected to him one way or another. You see that we don't have equal rights but some get privileged info about big financial changes that could help them grow their wealth. Look at how hard we had to fight Microsoft contracts creeping in everywhere in public institutions and schools, when you see in background that Microsoft was spending billions organizing events, gifts, ... to "legally" bribe officials. Now we can all see that there is a big dictatorial shift in the political leaders of occidental countries that used to be lands of freedom and rights. Politics see that they are unpopular and there is an uproar of the population to have change, but on the other side they see that a lot of dictatorial countries are able to control their population and stay in power using liberty restriction regulations (China, N Korea, Russia, Arabian countries, ...). So they are going to do the same. And the best way for them to support such reduction in freedom for populations is to bound together to do it together: - One "western" country leader that would instigate censorship, and reducing freedom and privacy right would be seen too clearly as abusing and on a dictatorial trend. - But if multiple of them push for that at the same time, it might more easily be seen as "for the greater good", because they are the "free countries"... So sad that the second world war is so far away, almost everyone forgot what happened in the years before the Nazi took control of Germany and started the obvious horrors. But we are on the same path. Putin's Russia is also a good example of how a country that was on the verge of freedom and liberty for its population, slowly but surely shifted to the current dictatorial state. All of that without a clear "revolution" or sudden shift. And officially it is still a "democratic" country...

cedws 9mo ago
Well said. Freedom only ratchets one way, we always lose freedom until something monumental happens to reset. Something on the scale of a world war or revolution. The bureaucrats cooking up these laws never loosen the cuffs.

hulitu 9mo ago

> this feels coordinated, right? Yes. Like most of the "news". Google, Meta, Microsoft and Apple really need your personal data.

stuaxo 9mo ago

Yes, the 5rights Foundation + their backers are behind the age verification bits and probably the social media ban, I have no idea what their destination is or how far they will take their prohibition. They work with other orgs, e.g. Fairplay (formerly CCFC) in the US.

cedws 9mo ago

My pet theory is that consciously or unconsciously, democracies are being forced into identifying individuals behind speech online and controlling certain ideas. The status quo is a vulnerability, it makes it too easy for adversaries to manipulate public opinion and sway elections. China and Russia have no such vulnerability. No doubt social media for children is a bad thing, but this is just a convenient excuse to make you hand over your ID.

iamnothere 9mo ago
It’s called “managed democracy” (or guided democracy apparently) and it’s what happens when a democracy decays into authoritarian governance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy There is also the related term “defensive democracy”, supposedly different but in practice the end result is the same. In both cases the democratic process is failing to achieve the results desired by those in power, so forceful intervention is used to steer future results.
- cedws 9mo ago
  Thanks, I wasn’t aware of this term.
- robocat 9mo ago
  Voting em out: I reckon the hidden key to democracy, is being able to vote disliked politicians out. Managed democracy seems fine so long as you can remove the bastards if they become Putin-like. There's a lot of hot air about democracy being voting for parties or politicians for the policies we like. Personally I have never felt that I've ever positively influenced policy with my voting. I have voted against a party because I disliked their policy, but that counterfactual is harder to judge (either my vote loses, or the policy doesn't occur : either way it is unclear if my vote mattered?). I'm rather cynical about democracy - it feels mostly like children's participation awards (which are great!).

coffeefirst 9mo ago

Jonathan Haidt. It’s not a shadowy conspiracy, it’s that all the teachers, parents, and the kids themselves agreed with him.

nmfisher 9mo ago

The less conspiratorial view is that the Australian government was the first to actually legislate it. Much easier for everyone else to follow in someone else's footsteps rather than being the first to take the plunge.