4 ms·

Any idea why this is in USA courts? Surely the sale occurred in another country and the terms and condition of that sale are dictated in that country? The tra

Any idea why this is in USA courts? Surely the sale occurred in another country and the terms and condition of that sale are dictated in that country? The transfer of ownership happened in the original country. If that breached the law it happened in the other country. If Ownership of a book is a property that survives crossing international boundaries (that is it is not seized by the state) and ownership in that nation confers certain rights then so be it. Don't sell something if you still want to own it. Don't give something to someone if you still want to keep it.

mikeryan 14y ago
There's two sales which occur,the original purchase of the book which happens overseas, there's no dispute here. The book is then resold in the US from a "distributor" in the US to US customers, thats why this becomes a US issue. Its the secondary sale which is questionable.
- hermanhermitage 14y ago
  Thanks for that - I think I kind of get it. And the second sale is questionable because of a limitation of the first sale?
  - greenyoda 14y ago
    The question is whether the first-sale doctrine (the right to freely re-sell things that you bought) applies to items originally sold outside the U.S.
  - GauntletWizard 14y ago
    There's a difference between personal first-sale and wholesale distribution. It sucks that information - There's no value in the paper, just the printing on it - can cost different amounts in different areas, but it's fairly easy to differentiate between "I bought 1-3 copies of this book in my home country, moved here, and brought them with me" and "I had my parents ship crates of books from my home country, which I resold at a profit". The gray area will remain "I personally bought something from foreign land, even though I do not reside there".
    - hermanhermitage 14y ago
      Could it be sold for scrap? ie with a cover note reminding the new owner they own the physical book but be careful not to use its contents?
      - tedunangst 14y ago
        Sure. Then convince the court your customers were just buying paper to recycle. You could also sell burned DVDs of The Dark Knight to customers interested in expanding their plastic collection.
        hermanhermitage 14y ago
        Don't quite follow the logic - were these books being illegally reprinted in the USA? Or were they originals?
        ramchip 14y ago
        The logic is just that courts aren't stupid. I've noticed sometimes this tendency in programmers (and in my younger self) to see human systems like computers. A court isn't a VM running the law as a bytecode. It's a bunch of humans, and they operate on common sense, too. Often there are gray areas and it's possible to sidestep the law, but you need a minimum of plausibility... if you put a note on textbooks to say "for use as fuel only", then go and sell it to students, I doubt that'll fool anyone. It's the same thing for selling burned CDs with a note to say "for use as recycled plastic only". There's a difference between selling them by the crate to a recycling center, and letting customers buy specific titles individually. The letter of the law may not specify that difference, but that doesn't make it irrelevant.
    - csense 14y ago
      > There's a difference between personal first-sale and wholesale distribution. I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, legally, there isn't, and shouldn't be. You should be able to build a business or nonprofit to give away, sell or lend secondhand games, books, CD's, videos, etc.

mikeryan 14y ago

There's two sales which occur,the original purchase of the book which happens overseas, there's no dispute here. The book is then resold in the US from a "distributor" in the US to US customers, thats why this becomes a US issue. Its the secondary sale which is questionable.

hermanhermitage 14y ago
Thanks for that - I think I kind of get it. And the second sale is questionable because of a limitation of the first sale?
- greenyoda 14y ago
  The question is whether the first-sale doctrine (the right to freely re-sell things that you bought) applies to items originally sold outside the U.S.
- GauntletWizard 14y ago
  There's a difference between personal first-sale and wholesale distribution. It sucks that information - There's no value in the paper, just the printing on it - can cost different amounts in different areas, but it's fairly easy to differentiate between "I bought 1-3 copies of this book in my home country, moved here, and brought them with me" and "I had my parents ship crates of books from my home country, which I resold at a profit". The gray area will remain "I personally bought something from foreign land, even though I do not reside there".
  - hermanhermitage 14y ago
    Could it be sold for scrap? ie with a cover note reminding the new owner they own the physical book but be careful not to use its contents?
    - tedunangst 14y ago
      Sure. Then convince the court your customers were just buying paper to recycle. You could also sell burned DVDs of The Dark Knight to customers interested in expanding their plastic collection.
      - hermanhermitage 14y ago
        Don't quite follow the logic - were these books being illegally reprinted in the USA? Or were they originals?
        ramchip 14y ago
        The logic is just that courts aren't stupid. I've noticed sometimes this tendency in programmers (and in my younger self) to see human systems like computers. A court isn't a VM running the law as a bytecode. It's a bunch of humans, and they operate on common sense, too. Often there are gray areas and it's possible to sidestep the law, but you need a minimum of plausibility... if you put a note on textbooks to say "for use as fuel only", then go and sell it to students, I doubt that'll fool anyone. It's the same thing for selling burned CDs with a note to say "for use as recycled plastic only". There's a difference between selling them by the crate to a recycling center, and letting customers buy specific titles individually. The letter of the law may not specify that difference, but that doesn't make it irrelevant.
  - csense 14y ago
    > There's a difference between personal first-sale and wholesale distribution. I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, legally, there isn't, and shouldn't be. You should be able to build a business or nonprofit to give away, sell or lend secondhand games, books, CD's, videos, etc.