4 ms·

Your last point, about supply, seems unlikely. To a first approximation anyone in the world can take a course for free from Peter freaking Norvig, and that's on

Your last point, about supply, seems unlikely. To a first approximation anyone in the world can take a course for free from Peter freaking Norvig, and that's only been true for a year. (Not just those particular courses but the way online education's been getting more interactive.)

rayiner 14y ago
This is where the proxies for quality come in. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that requires an accounting degree or CPA certification to practice as an accountant. Yet, no big corporation is going to trust their accounting to someone who took some online classes in accounting, no matter who they took those classes from. More generally, I don't think online education is the big game changer people on HN seem to think it is. Modern online education really doesn't buy you anything that hasn't been available for decades through correspondance courses. It's all just reading and writing and that can be easily done over e-mail, fax, or even physical mail. People who think online education is a game changer don't understand the point of education. It's not really about learning. It's about signaling. The most important part is the degree that some people get and other people don't get, with the name on the degree from a school that some people got into and other people did not. That's what the industry cares about. I love the quote from "Good Will Hunting" where Will points out that there isn't anything in a Harvard education you can't get for $10 in late fees at the public library. That's true and always has been. But the education isn't the point. It never has been.
- njharman 14y ago
  When "prestige" and proxies substitute for quality is when I do no longer want to be part of that industry. Accounting and consultants are good examples. They aren't higher quality, esp compared to cost. They just have better PR, marketing, and thus provide an out when the shit hits the fan. "Hey, I picked the topped ranked firm, can't blame me for them fucking up."
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 14y ago
    > When "prestige" and proxies substitute for quality is when I do no longer want to be part of that industry. I think using proxies for quality are better than what we have in software right now, which is no focus on quality and working with the assumption that software will be late, buggy, etc. Also, I don't see the point in being ideological about it. Google and Facebook exist by selling peoples' privacy in ways that people don't really understand. Does that keep people from working in Silicon Valley?
    - edanm 14y ago
      Agree completely with your first sentence, well said and thanks for saying it. Disagree with the second statement - I may be wrong, but I think at least a lot of Google's revenue comes from placing ads in search. No selling of privacy, or at least done in a way that people completely understand.
      - rayiner 14y ago
        A lot of Google's revenues come from selling targeted ads in response to searches. Your private information--from GMail, your other Google searches, etc, all goes into those targeted ads. And of course, advertising is dependant on companies wanting to create proxies for prestige and quality. It's called branding.
    - njharman 14y ago
      > no focus on quality and working with the assumption that software will be late, buggy, etc. That does not describe me, software engineers I know, most places I've worked (any in last 12years), nor the industry I work in. People claiming that is how the software industry is are usually trying to sell you a service, tool, or ideology.
- jaredhansen 14y ago
  I don't think this is true. Elite institutions, in addition to whatever signaling value they provide, do add something significant to the educational experience, which you cannot get from a mail-based correspondence course: regular, in-person interaction with other students who were deemed by the institution to be bright enough to be admitted. I'm speaking from personal experience here: I was homeschooled for K-12, and I went to an average college and a prestigious law school. So I've had basically the full range of educational experiences across the continuum you're talking about, and I can tell you with certainty that there are significant differences completely unrelated to signaling. Much of a quality education takes place outside the classroom, and may not be strictly required by the curriculum itself. Whether online education, via greater interactivity relative to previous forms of delivery, can approximate this benefit is an open question -- but "live" education (in person or otherwise) provides benefits that are simply not available to an isolated reader of a static text. The Good Will Hunting quote about Harvard is cute, but it's false.
  - Cacti 14y ago
    I completely agree with you. I was public as a kid and then went on to an "elite" institution, so I don't have the _entire_ perspective, but: The value of simply being in an environment for 4+ years, mashed together in tight confines, with 10,000 other people WHO ARE ALL AS SMART OR SMARTER THAN YOU, is incalculable. Honestly, 10 years later, I would drop another $150k just to repeat the experience.
- Evbn 14y ago
  That is the most misquoted movie line ever. Read the whole scene: http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Good_Will_Hunting#section_3 http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Good_Will_Hunting#section_3 Will is specifically insulting the guy for memorizes passages from books and not thinking independently, and the student is bragging that his degree will make him rich anyway. No one is downplaying the unique opportunity to learn from peers at college.
- hollerith 14y ago
  >I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that requires an accounting degree or CPA certification to practice as an accountant. CPA certification is required by law in most (and probably all) US states for accountants that prepare certain kinds of financial statements, e.g., the statements that publicly-traded companies have to file with the SEC. A merger or an acquisition (of a company public or private) is probably another situation you cannot successfully navigate with accountants that are not CPAs. (Possibly the same thing applies to any sufficiently large bank loan to any company, public or private.) ADDED. In contrast, a lot of accountants provide data intended for their employer's internal consumption, and the law does not require degrees or certifications for that type of accountant.
greenyoda 14y ago
Taking courses isn't going to make anyone a skilled programmer. As Norvig himself pointed out, that usually comes from having on the order of 10,000 hours of experience: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years - http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html
- abecedarius 14y ago
  Yes, courses alone don't presently make anyone an expert programmer. Neither does reading open source, from BSD to GitHub. But in both cases we've seen or can expect this free availability of quality material to increase the supply of better programmers.

rayiner 14y ago

This is where the proxies for quality come in. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that requires an accounting degree or CPA certification to practice as an accountant. Yet, no big corporation is going to trust their accounting to someone who took some online classes in accounting, no matter who they took those classes from. More generally, I don't think online education is the big game changer people on HN seem to think it is. Modern online education really doesn't buy you anything that hasn't been available for decades through correspondance courses. It's all just reading and writing and that can be easily done over e-mail, fax, or even physical mail. People who think online education is a game changer don't understand the point of education. It's not really about learning. It's about signaling. The most important part is the degree that some people get and other people don't get, with the name on the degree from a school that some people got into and other people did not. That's what the industry cares about. I love the quote from "Good Will Hunting" where Will points out that there isn't anything in a Harvard education you can't get for $10 in late fees at the public library. That's true and always has been. But the education isn't the point. It never has been.

njharman 14y ago
When "prestige" and proxies substitute for quality is when I do no longer want to be part of that industry. Accounting and consultants are good examples. They aren't higher quality, esp compared to cost. They just have better PR, marketing, and thus provide an out when the shit hits the fan. "Hey, I picked the topped ranked firm, can't blame me for them fucking up."
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 14y ago
  > When "prestige" and proxies substitute for quality is when I do no longer want to be part of that industry. I think using proxies for quality are better than what we have in software right now, which is no focus on quality and working with the assumption that software will be late, buggy, etc. Also, I don't see the point in being ideological about it. Google and Facebook exist by selling peoples' privacy in ways that people don't really understand. Does that keep people from working in Silicon Valley?
  - edanm 14y ago
    Agree completely with your first sentence, well said and thanks for saying it. Disagree with the second statement - I may be wrong, but I think at least a lot of Google's revenue comes from placing ads in search. No selling of privacy, or at least done in a way that people completely understand.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      A lot of Google's revenues come from selling targeted ads in response to searches. Your private information--from GMail, your other Google searches, etc, all goes into those targeted ads. And of course, advertising is dependant on companies wanting to create proxies for prestige and quality. It's called branding.
  - njharman 14y ago
    > no focus on quality and working with the assumption that software will be late, buggy, etc. That does not describe me, software engineers I know, most places I've worked (any in last 12years), nor the industry I work in. People claiming that is how the software industry is are usually trying to sell you a service, tool, or ideology.
jaredhansen 14y ago
I don't think this is true. Elite institutions, in addition to whatever signaling value they provide, do add something significant to the educational experience, which you cannot get from a mail-based correspondence course: regular, in-person interaction with other students who were deemed by the institution to be bright enough to be admitted. I'm speaking from personal experience here: I was homeschooled for K-12, and I went to an average college and a prestigious law school. So I've had basically the full range of educational experiences across the continuum you're talking about, and I can tell you with certainty that there are significant differences completely unrelated to signaling. Much of a quality education takes place outside the classroom, and may not be strictly required by the curriculum itself. Whether online education, via greater interactivity relative to previous forms of delivery, can approximate this benefit is an open question -- but "live" education (in person or otherwise) provides benefits that are simply not available to an isolated reader of a static text. The Good Will Hunting quote about Harvard is cute, but it's false.
- Cacti 14y ago
  I completely agree with you. I was public as a kid and then went on to an "elite" institution, so I don't have the _entire_ perspective, but: The value of simply being in an environment for 4+ years, mashed together in tight confines, with 10,000 other people WHO ARE ALL AS SMART OR SMARTER THAN YOU, is incalculable. Honestly, 10 years later, I would drop another $150k just to repeat the experience.
Evbn 14y ago
That is the most misquoted movie line ever. Read the whole scene: http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Good_Will_Hunting#section_3 http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Good_Will_Hunting#section_3 Will is specifically insulting the guy for memorizes passages from books and not thinking independently, and the student is bragging that his degree will make him rich anyway. No one is downplaying the unique opportunity to learn from peers at college.
hollerith 14y ago
>I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that requires an accounting degree or CPA certification to practice as an accountant. CPA certification is required by law in most (and probably all) US states for accountants that prepare certain kinds of financial statements, e.g., the statements that publicly-traded companies have to file with the SEC. A merger or an acquisition (of a company public or private) is probably another situation you cannot successfully navigate with accountants that are not CPAs. (Possibly the same thing applies to any sufficiently large bank loan to any company, public or private.) ADDED. In contrast, a lot of accountants provide data intended for their employer's internal consumption, and the law does not require degrees or certifications for that type of accountant.

greenyoda 14y ago

Taking courses isn't going to make anyone a skilled programmer. As Norvig himself pointed out, that usually comes from having on the order of 10,000 hours of experience: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years - http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html

abecedarius 14y ago
Yes, courses alone don't presently make anyone an expert programmer. Neither does reading open source, from BSD to GitHub. But in both cases we've seen or can expect this free availability of quality material to increase the supply of better programmers.