5 ms·

I think this submission should be re-titled. From the post, it seems that the author voluntarily declined funding from FLOSS/Fund because they "don't trust them

I think this submission should be re-titled. From the post, it seems that the author voluntarily declined funding from FLOSS/Fund because they "don't trust them, nor the India government, with processing and storing personal sensitive data"

BoredPositron 8mo ago
It's a wire transfer not your medical records. Use escrow if you are paranoid.
DiabloD3 8mo ago
I think it shouldn't. The funding source was dropped by Github, and the terms Pocketbase accepted for funding include being paid through Github by FLOSS Fund. FLOSS Fund refused to follow the regulatory requirements to continue funding projects through Github, and Github dropped them as a funding source. What the Pocketbase maintainer decided was to drop FLOSS Fund after they tried to renegotiate the contract in dangerous and unethical ways. FLOSS Fund chose to not follow regulatory requirements that Github required.
- bawolff 8mo ago
  Its a contract where they give money in exchange for basically nothing. It may be reasonable for pocketbase to refuse, but i have trouble seeing floss fund being unethical or in the wrong when we're talking about giving away money for nothing. Especially when the ask is just fill out the paperwork for a wire transfer, the world standard for sending money internationally.
  - Onavo 8mo ago
    Don't think escrow is possible because of KYC requirements, then again the regulations in India might be different.
    - jacquesm 8mo ago
      Escrow is the wrong tool for the job anyway.
- sreekanth850 8mo ago
  Are you saying sending money via Wire transfer is unethical? Its a standard way to send money in cross boarder transactions. Please do note that India is highly regulated for financial transaction that go outside the country so, please don't spread something like they are doing it illegally. Zerodha is a well known firm they are open about this funding. 1 Million every year just because they used many oss project. That is not un ethical.
  - DiabloD3 8mo ago
    From what I can tell, no, they weren't just asking for wire details. They were were asking for multiple forms of identification. If I was in his place, I don't think I'd send everything required to steal my identity to some company in a foreign country that I have no legal recourse in.
    - rvnx 8mo ago
      The irony is that a lot of the KYC checks are actually done in India: Jumio, Onfido, LexisNexis, Refinitiv, HyperVerge, IDfy, Signzy (a lot of major banks) So his ID is probably there already
      - justinclift 8mo ago
        Sure, but this would have changed that from "probably" to "definitely". :(
    - Propelloni 8mo ago
      The e-mail posted somewhere in the comments, assuming it is legit, makes it clear that FLOSS Fund requires certain paperwork for tax reasons to the benefit of the receiver. Apparently the Pocketbase developer is receiving the money personally, which means it is income and will be taxed. Apparently, again, it would also be taxed in India (the seat of FLOSS Fund) and the paperwork would allow to avoid double taxation. This appears much more reasonable to me than the hoops I have to jump through to declare my taxes as an US expatriate and avoid double taxation with my country of residence.
  - 8mo ago
- rvnx 8mo ago
  Unethical ? "they want to issue a wire transfer, but I don't feel comfortable giving my IBAN" If the IBAM is the concern you can create a separate IBAN with Wise / Revolut for example quite easily (and for free, and for sure cheaper than refusing the money).
- fdefitte 8mo ago
  [dead]
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - reenorap 8mo ago
    This is false. I just did an international wire transfer a few weeks ago with no KYC.
    - jacquesm 8mo ago
      Right, so you think. But: your bank knows who you are and the recipient's bank knows who they are. Your transfer may have been below the increased attention threshold ($10K to $50K depending on the jurisdictions of both recipients). Both your accounts are most likely not recent and in good standing. And so on. I routinely make international wiretransfers as well but I'm under no illusion whatsoever that if I tried to cross an anti-money-laundering or anti-terrorism-financing threshold somewhere that the transfer would be immediately stopped and an investigation would ensue.
      - reenorap 8mo ago
        Right but presumably the OP had an existing bank account. You can't wire money into thin air. Assuming OP is a regular person with a regular bank account, then further KYC isn't necessary. KYC for every international wire transfer is in fact not true at all, only for the edge case where a person wants to receive money and he has no existing account to transfer it in.
        jacquesm 8mo ago
        You can't just transfer money to a person that has no account. That's not an 'edge case' that just isn't how it works unless you want to use WU or something similar and even they have strict KYC requirements for larger sums. If you want to move large amounts of money outside of the regular financial networks and oversight it is possible but (1) it will cost you (2) you will be breaking the law and (3) you may cause others to be breaking the law. Bitcoin would be one way to do it but even that is not nearly as anonymous as most of its users believe. Banking is a regulated industry for a reason. There was a period (roughly until 2001, guess why) when banks were willing and able to bend the rules depending on who the customer was and how much money was involved. Those banks that continued to do this post 2001 have - if they're located in the West at least - had their ears bent in ways that they did not like one bit and even the Swiss now play ball. Cash is becoming harder to use and harder to get. Money will most likely go digital in the West soon, the various governments don't like the unauditable and untaxable money streams that cash provides.
- protimewaster 8mo ago
  > FLOSS Fund refused to follow the regulatory requirements to continue funding projects through Github, and Github dropped them as a funding source. The email they sent to Pocketbase (posted elsewhere in the thread) makes it sound like the regulatory issue with GitHub funding is still being worked on. The email also doesn't sound like it ruled out the option to wait until the GitHub situation potentially gets sorted out in the future and simply recommended that they use a wire transfer to get things moving.
- jacquesm 8mo ago
  That's not 'dangerous and unethical' by the normal standards of funding application. Sure, it's not a huge amount of money. But almost every fund has some paperwork requirements and most of them are a lot more onerous than this one. Funds don't operate outside the legal framework, they are well within it and are expected to show their paperwork at the drop of a hat to any auditor that comes knocking. If they just wired sums that are at or near the reporting requirement to any callers they'd be in pretty hot water. I've had an AML check for the grand sum of 900 euros once.
  - bladeacidic 8mo ago
    What was that like? Was it super invasive?
    - jacquesm 8mo ago
      No, it was fine, it took about a day, I had to provide some ID for the recipient and after that the transfer went through immediately.
- seany 8mo ago
  Isn't this what monero is for?
fossmaintainer 8mo ago
Here's the actual e-mail the fund sent: Hey ******, I hope you're doing well. I apologise for the long delay on this disbursal from our end, and for not reaching out to you sooner. I am writing to you with an update on GitHub Sponsors, your preferred mode of payment. Unfortunately, we're currently unable to process payments through GitHub Sponsors, Liberapay, OpenCollective, or similar platforms due to regulatory constraints. We still have no clarity on when this will become possible. We shared some context on this earlier here: https://floss.fund/blog/second-tranche-2025-anniversary/ https://floss.fund/blog/second-tranche-2025-anniversary/ We recommend that we move ahead with a wire transfer (although it involves some paperwork!). This involves: 1) Tax Residency Certificate (TRC) from your country of residence/incorporation for the current year. 2) Signed copy of the "No Permanent Establishment in India Declaration" (Template attached) 3) Form 10F to avoid double taxation for non-Indian entities and individuals. This is an online form that has to be filled out on the Indian Tax Department website. Instructions on how to fill it out are attached to this email. Please refer to this FAQ for more details. 4) Service Agreement – Please fill in the sections marked in yellow and send it back to us (Attached) 5) Invoice for the grant amount (sample attached with required fields highlighted, feel free to use your own invoice template if needed. Please mention "project development support" in the invoice description). Once you have these, please send them over so that we can begin processing the payment. Please note that these documents are required in our jurisdiction (India) for processing foreign payments. A percentage of the payment will be withheld as per the DTAA (Double-Taxation Avoidance Agreement) between India and your country, which the recipient can claim back while filing tax returns in their country. The specific withholding rate depends on the DTAA regulations between your country and India. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to us. Thank you once again for your patience
- yorwba 8mo ago
  Where did you get that email from?
- 8cvor6j844qw_d6 8mo ago
  Looking at the required paperwork, I agree with Pocketbase to refuse funding.

BoredPositron 8mo ago

It's a wire transfer not your medical records. Use escrow if you are paranoid.

DiabloD3 8mo ago

I think it shouldn't. The funding source was dropped by Github, and the terms Pocketbase accepted for funding include being paid through Github by FLOSS Fund. FLOSS Fund refused to follow the regulatory requirements to continue funding projects through Github, and Github dropped them as a funding source. What the Pocketbase maintainer decided was to drop FLOSS Fund after they tried to renegotiate the contract in dangerous and unethical ways. FLOSS Fund chose to not follow regulatory requirements that Github required.

bawolff 8mo ago
Its a contract where they give money in exchange for basically nothing. It may be reasonable for pocketbase to refuse, but i have trouble seeing floss fund being unethical or in the wrong when we're talking about giving away money for nothing. Especially when the ask is just fill out the paperwork for a wire transfer, the world standard for sending money internationally.
- Onavo 8mo ago
  Don't think escrow is possible because of KYC requirements, then again the regulations in India might be different.
  - jacquesm 8mo ago
    Escrow is the wrong tool for the job anyway.
sreekanth850 8mo ago
Are you saying sending money via Wire transfer is unethical? Its a standard way to send money in cross boarder transactions. Please do note that India is highly regulated for financial transaction that go outside the country so, please don't spread something like they are doing it illegally. Zerodha is a well known firm they are open about this funding. 1 Million every year just because they used many oss project. That is not un ethical.
- DiabloD3 8mo ago
  From what I can tell, no, they weren't just asking for wire details. They were were asking for multiple forms of identification. If I was in his place, I don't think I'd send everything required to steal my identity to some company in a foreign country that I have no legal recourse in.
  - rvnx 8mo ago
    The irony is that a lot of the KYC checks are actually done in India: Jumio, Onfido, LexisNexis, Refinitiv, HyperVerge, IDfy, Signzy (a lot of major banks) So his ID is probably there already
    - justinclift 8mo ago
      Sure, but this would have changed that from "probably" to "definitely". :(
  - Propelloni 8mo ago
    The e-mail posted somewhere in the comments, assuming it is legit, makes it clear that FLOSS Fund requires certain paperwork for tax reasons to the benefit of the receiver. Apparently the Pocketbase developer is receiving the money personally, which means it is income and will be taxed. Apparently, again, it would also be taxed in India (the seat of FLOSS Fund) and the paperwork would allow to avoid double taxation. This appears much more reasonable to me than the hoops I have to jump through to declare my taxes as an US expatriate and avoid double taxation with my country of residence.
- 8mo ago
rvnx 8mo ago
Unethical ? "they want to issue a wire transfer, but I don't feel comfortable giving my IBAN" If the IBAM is the concern you can create a separate IBAN with Wise / Revolut for example quite easily (and for free, and for sure cheaper than refusing the money).
fdefitte 8mo ago
[dead]
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- reenorap 8mo ago
  This is false. I just did an international wire transfer a few weeks ago with no KYC.
  - jacquesm 8mo ago
    Right, so you think. But: your bank knows who you are and the recipient's bank knows who they are. Your transfer may have been below the increased attention threshold ($10K to $50K depending on the jurisdictions of both recipients). Both your accounts are most likely not recent and in good standing. And so on. I routinely make international wiretransfers as well but I'm under no illusion whatsoever that if I tried to cross an anti-money-laundering or anti-terrorism-financing threshold somewhere that the transfer would be immediately stopped and an investigation would ensue.
    - reenorap 8mo ago
      Right but presumably the OP had an existing bank account. You can't wire money into thin air. Assuming OP is a regular person with a regular bank account, then further KYC isn't necessary. KYC for every international wire transfer is in fact not true at all, only for the edge case where a person wants to receive money and he has no existing account to transfer it in.
      - jacquesm 8mo ago
        You can't just transfer money to a person that has no account. That's not an 'edge case' that just isn't how it works unless you want to use WU or something similar and even they have strict KYC requirements for larger sums. If you want to move large amounts of money outside of the regular financial networks and oversight it is possible but (1) it will cost you (2) you will be breaking the law and (3) you may cause others to be breaking the law. Bitcoin would be one way to do it but even that is not nearly as anonymous as most of its users believe. Banking is a regulated industry for a reason. There was a period (roughly until 2001, guess why) when banks were willing and able to bend the rules depending on who the customer was and how much money was involved. Those banks that continued to do this post 2001 have - if they're located in the West at least - had their ears bent in ways that they did not like one bit and even the Swiss now play ball. Cash is becoming harder to use and harder to get. Money will most likely go digital in the West soon, the various governments don't like the unauditable and untaxable money streams that cash provides.
protimewaster 8mo ago
> FLOSS Fund refused to follow the regulatory requirements to continue funding projects through Github, and Github dropped them as a funding source. The email they sent to Pocketbase (posted elsewhere in the thread) makes it sound like the regulatory issue with GitHub funding is still being worked on. The email also doesn't sound like it ruled out the option to wait until the GitHub situation potentially gets sorted out in the future and simply recommended that they use a wire transfer to get things moving.
jacquesm 8mo ago
That's not 'dangerous and unethical' by the normal standards of funding application. Sure, it's not a huge amount of money. But almost every fund has some paperwork requirements and most of them are a lot more onerous than this one. Funds don't operate outside the legal framework, they are well within it and are expected to show their paperwork at the drop of a hat to any auditor that comes knocking. If they just wired sums that are at or near the reporting requirement to any callers they'd be in pretty hot water. I've had an AML check for the grand sum of 900 euros once.
- bladeacidic 8mo ago
  What was that like? Was it super invasive?
  - jacquesm 8mo ago
    No, it was fine, it took about a day, I had to provide some ID for the recipient and after that the transfer went through immediately.
seany 8mo ago
Isn't this what monero is for?

fossmaintainer 8mo ago

Here's the actual e-mail the fund sent: Hey ******, I hope you're doing well. I apologise for the long delay on this disbursal from our end, and for not reaching out to you sooner. I am writing to you with an update on GitHub Sponsors, your preferred mode of payment. Unfortunately, we're currently unable to process payments through GitHub Sponsors, Liberapay, OpenCollective, or similar platforms due to regulatory constraints. We still have no clarity on when this will become possible. We shared some context on this earlier here: https://floss.fund/blog/second-tranche-2025-anniversary/ https://floss.fund/blog/second-tranche-2025-anniversary/ We recommend that we move ahead with a wire transfer (although it involves some paperwork!). This involves: 1) Tax Residency Certificate (TRC) from your country of residence/incorporation for the current year. 2) Signed copy of the "No Permanent Establishment in India Declaration" (Template attached) 3) Form 10F to avoid double taxation for non-Indian entities and individuals. This is an online form that has to be filled out on the Indian Tax Department website. Instructions on how to fill it out are attached to this email. Please refer to this FAQ for more details. 4) Service Agreement – Please fill in the sections marked in yellow and send it back to us (Attached) 5) Invoice for the grant amount (sample attached with required fields highlighted, feel free to use your own invoice template if needed. Please mention "project development support" in the invoice description). Once you have these, please send them over so that we can begin processing the payment. Please note that these documents are required in our jurisdiction (India) for processing foreign payments. A percentage of the payment will be withheld as per the DTAA (Double-Taxation Avoidance Agreement) between India and your country, which the recipient can claim back while filing tax returns in their country. The specific withholding rate depends on the DTAA regulations between your country and India. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to us. Thank you once again for your patience

yorwba 8mo ago
Where did you get that email from?
8cvor6j844qw_d6 8mo ago
Looking at the required paperwork, I agree with Pocketbase to refuse funding.