4 ms·

Not sure if it's just me, but it sure seems like a massive case of entitlement. "You shouldn’t have to prep Sunday to Sunday, to get into a good high school...

by cargo8 14y ago

Not sure if it's just me, but it sure seems like a massive case of entitlement. "You shouldn’t have to prep Sunday to Sunday, to get into a good high school... That's extreme." Actually that's how it largely is for competitive colleges, and if people are arguing for a merit-based admission system that is _exactly_ what people should have to do if other people are willing to. Tough to tell where the author is landing on this point in his article.

seiji 14y ago
It's difficult for Americans to accept working harder (insanely harder) gets you further in life. Intelligence is supposed to be innate, not something you can manipulate by "working harder." Whether you are smart or dumb, you should be happy about it and still be a millionaire. It seems so unfair painfully studying and drilling makes you seem smarter. Why is it unfair? Because Americans obviously don't want to painfully study and drill math and science and culture when they could be texting or playing video games or drinking diet energy mountain dew xtreme (the dewiest).
- sgrove 14y ago
  This seems unfair. First, there are absolutely economic and cultural factors that cause noise in the meritocracy. Second, for those Americans who aren't in disadvantaged economic situations, there's certainly an emphasis on 'being happy' and being at least a bit of a generalist here which isn't as present in many other places. Reducing that to 'text or playing video games or drinking diet energy mountain dew xtreme (the dewiest)' is dismissive and lowers the conversation.
  - seiji 14y ago
    Good point. I was approaching from a view of mostly well off Americans who get annoyed when fer'ners show up and become more successful than they are. It's completely different when you consider people who don't even know how to do academic things well being placed against extreme cram school cultures. See: waiting for superman, the lottery, a few Frontline specials about it, and mst3k episode 816.
    - sgrove 14y ago
      Ah, yes, I see the context now. I suppose I have less an less exposure to people like that these days, so they rarely factor into my understanding. Probably fair to say there's a mix of different attitudes, understanding, expectations, and hopes in the American landscape.
- batgaijin 14y ago
  I don't think it's that, I think at the end of the day it's racism. Oh, the other kids are doing better than you Timmy? Well you've got to study harder! What, the Asian got a better grade than you? Well, can't help that. I mean, I think there is a general kind of attitude that Asian people don't really count towards raising the bar - there really is no other way to describe it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-02/harvard-targeted-in-u-s-asian-american-discrimination-probe.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-02/harvard-targeted-in... Note: Asian means Indian too :P
- tkahn6 14y ago
  I don't know if you've ever stepped foot in an American high school but I can tell you from experience that the things you must do to do very well in an American high school are not things to be proud of.
subsystem 14y ago
That everyone should have access to a good high school is entitlement?
- cargo8 14y ago
  That someone believes they deserve admission to a specific set of schools as much as someone else who is working 10-100x harder with the specific goal of attaining admission to those schools? Yes, I believe that is entitlement.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    Why not have more good schools? Why not give rewarding jobs to smart talented people from any backgroung instead of people with degrees from a small number of blessed institutions? Why not give better teachers to kids who aren't lucky enough to have education-minded parents? Why not level the playing field?
    - comicjk 14y ago
      Stuyvesant has plenty of bad teachers. The good schools are largely defined by getting the good students. If we switched the student body of Stuyvesant with that of Washington Irving, Washington Irving would become one of the best high schools in the city and Stuyvesant would become a school where parents beg their students not be sent.
      - sjg007 14y ago
        This is the most important point. The benefit of these elite schools, is that peer pressure plays a positive role. All kids compete at these schools, form study groups etc.. Teachers want to teach motivated students and these things together drive education.
    - cargo8 14y ago
      Beyond what comicjk said, yes in general we should yearn for the best education to be given to all of those who have a thirst to learn it - but that is not the point of this article so much as saying which students in particular should get into a selection of schools.

by cargo8 14y ago

seiji 14y ago

It's difficult for Americans to accept working harder (insanely harder) gets you further in life. Intelligence is supposed to be innate, not something you can manipulate by "working harder." Whether you are smart or dumb, you should be happy about it and still be a millionaire. It seems so unfair painfully studying and drilling makes you seem smarter. Why is it unfair? Because Americans obviously don't want to painfully study and drill math and science and culture when they could be texting or playing video games or drinking diet energy mountain dew xtreme (the dewiest).

sgrove 14y ago
This seems unfair. First, there are absolutely economic and cultural factors that cause noise in the meritocracy. Second, for those Americans who aren't in disadvantaged economic situations, there's certainly an emphasis on 'being happy' and being at least a bit of a generalist here which isn't as present in many other places. Reducing that to 'text or playing video games or drinking diet energy mountain dew xtreme (the dewiest)' is dismissive and lowers the conversation.
- seiji 14y ago
  Good point. I was approaching from a view of mostly well off Americans who get annoyed when fer'ners show up and become more successful than they are. It's completely different when you consider people who don't even know how to do academic things well being placed against extreme cram school cultures. See: waiting for superman, the lottery, a few Frontline specials about it, and mst3k episode 816.
  - sgrove 14y ago
    Ah, yes, I see the context now. I suppose I have less an less exposure to people like that these days, so they rarely factor into my understanding. Probably fair to say there's a mix of different attitudes, understanding, expectations, and hopes in the American landscape.
batgaijin 14y ago
I don't think it's that, I think at the end of the day it's racism. Oh, the other kids are doing better than you Timmy? Well you've got to study harder! What, the Asian got a better grade than you? Well, can't help that. I mean, I think there is a general kind of attitude that Asian people don't really count towards raising the bar - there really is no other way to describe it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-02/harvard-targeted-in-u-s-asian-american-discrimination-probe.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-02/harvard-targeted-in... Note: Asian means Indian too :P
tkahn6 14y ago
I don't know if you've ever stepped foot in an American high school but I can tell you from experience that the things you must do to do very well in an American high school are not things to be proud of.

subsystem 14y ago

That everyone should have access to a good high school is entitlement?

cargo8 14y ago
That someone believes they deserve admission to a specific set of schools as much as someone else who is working 10-100x harder with the specific goal of attaining admission to those schools? Yes, I believe that is entitlement.
- Evbn 14y ago
  Why not have more good schools? Why not give rewarding jobs to smart talented people from any backgroung instead of people with degrees from a small number of blessed institutions? Why not give better teachers to kids who aren't lucky enough to have education-minded parents? Why not level the playing field?
  - comicjk 14y ago
    Stuyvesant has plenty of bad teachers. The good schools are largely defined by getting the good students. If we switched the student body of Stuyvesant with that of Washington Irving, Washington Irving would become one of the best high schools in the city and Stuyvesant would become a school where parents beg their students not be sent.
    - sjg007 14y ago
      This is the most important point. The benefit of these elite schools, is that peer pressure plays a positive role. All kids compete at these schools, form study groups etc.. Teachers want to teach motivated students and these things together drive education.
  - cargo8 14y ago
    Beyond what comicjk said, yes in general we should yearn for the best education to be given to all of those who have a thirst to learn it - but that is not the point of this article so much as saying which students in particular should get into a selection of schools.