7 ms·

>The Surface is partially for Microsoft’s world of denial: the world in which this store contains no elephants and Microsoft invented the silver store with the

• msutherl 14y ago
  They hate it because it sucks. His whole article is about how much and why it sucks. Then he concludes that maybe it doesn't suck. Maybe it's just him. It reminds me of Winston Smith, wondering whether it's he that's insane after all.
  • jbigelow76 14y ago
    That's kind of a grandiose comparison don't you think? 1984 is a cautionary (prescient?) fable about a totalitarianistic dystopia and the other is a tedious rant about consumer electronics in a shopping mall.
    • Ygg2 14y ago
      There are some funny parables that can be drawn between 1984 and the way iOS walled garden functions. It's not the same ofc, but to the hacker ethos it behaves in much the same way. EDIT: Just to make sure, by hacker ethos I consider something in the lines of Stallman which is a staunch proponent of tinker everything.
      • randomchars 14y ago
        And the way Windows RT's walled garden works?
  • seiji 14y ago
    It's not about "sucks," it's about the difference between being a market leader and someone trying to emulate a market leader with no understanding of why things are popular. Touch? Sure, let's do touch, but we won't consider human aspects like the size of on screen elements. Gestures? Sure, let's make things swipe and tap and zoom. Why? Why not? The other people do it. Animations? Sure, they are pretty. Let's animate some things. They are optional and meaningless anyway, so we can be sparse and nobody will care. They should be happy we added animations anyway! Wooden tables with see through table toppers with t-shirted employees? It's just the natural order of things. We aren't copying anybody.
• w1ntermute 14y ago
  To be honest, it's time to ban Macro's blog from HN. Every time one of his trollbait posts hits the frontpage of this site (and they somehow always do), we have these exact same discussions about how him and Gruber and Siegler are incapable of looking at the technology industry without bias.
  • skrebbel 14y ago
    Wait, ban a site because it's consistently popular on HN? Clearly, many people here agree with him. (I don't, but that's OK)
    • cooldeal 14y ago
      Funny, because Paul Thurrott's http://winsupersite.com http://winsupersite.com is completely banned from being on HN, most probably from overzealous MS haters flagging articles to death.
      • skrebbel 14y ago
        I think that's ridiculous too. In fact, I'm as much a fanboy of Microsoft as Marco is of Apple - my comment wasn't about the content, it was about the ridiculousness of banning popular sites about HN-typical topics.
      • levesque 14y ago
        Well it is a disgusting site (an ad over the article, really?). I hate both Microsoft and Apple equally and I'm glad this one is gone from HN.
    • w1ntermute 14y ago
      That's such a double standard. Android is a much more popular smartphone OS than iOS, but Macro wouldn't make an Android version of Instapaper. He said it was because he didn't have time to develop for Android (though we all know the truth is that he just irrationally hates all non-Apple platforms) - perhaps we on HN just don't have the time to wade through useless trollbait posts like this one. And those HN users that agree with him and are upvoting the post (just like Android Instapaper users) aren't important.
• jkubicek 14y ago
  I can't speak for MG, but Gruber and Marco definitely do not automatically dislike anything non-Apple. Read both of their writings on WebOS or Windows Metro UI for a positive spin on non-apple products or their writing on Game Center, Ping, App Store reviews for an anti-Apple slant. Both men have a strong appreciation for usability, look-and-feel, intuitiveness and consistency in their electronic gadgets. They both get pigeon-holed as Apple apologists because Apple is the only major electronics manufacturer that seems to care one iota about these things, but when another company comes along and gets theses details right, neither Marco or Gruber will hesitate to praise them.
  • rat87 14y ago
    Isn't Surface all Metro-y?
  • smackfu 14y ago
    They will both give Apple the benefit of the doubt while not doing the same for others. Apple flaws are unimportant, others flaws are crazy bad. For instance, Gamecenter is just terrible on iOS. Looks tacky, barely works. How you treat that in a review is very revealing of your partisan positions. You could make it the centerpiece and how it shows that Apple is losing its touch in new features and is on a downward spiral. Or you could just ignore it.
    • cpr 14y ago
      Just FYI: since the recent release of Loren Brichter's Letterpress app (wild success), the iOS cognoscenti on Twitter have been doing nothing but bashing Game Center from all directions--performance, reliability, etc.--, including Gruber.
      • smackfu 14y ago
        Yeah but it seems more like they are bemused by it thank actually seeing it as something to criticize Apple for. Plus there's the standard "Apple doesn't do web services well" thing that seems to excuse a lot.
• 27182818284 14y ago
  Of course Apple changed the way in-person selling of computers. If you need evidence of this today, find a Best Buy. That was your option before the Apple Store way of doing it. The last time I was in an Apple store (more than a year ago) I grabbed what I needed and then a kind woman walked up to me and double-checked that was what the item my MacBook needed. She scanned my card right there and I left knowing my Gmail account had a receipt mailed to it. The whole thing took 5 minutes. And the store was crowded at the time too! It was exactly how I would want a retail experience to be. She double checked, then I paid and left. bam. Before the Apple Store, where could you go to get EVEN REMOTELY the same experience? Best Buy? Circuit City? Oh no wait, I know, CompUSA! Sure, buddy. (I know some will try to denounce me as just an Apple fanboy. To that I would point out that for years I exclusively used Linux so I feel fine looking down on both Apple and Microsoft :P That said, it is just that in this instance, Microsoft is clearly playing catch up.)
  • 10098 14y ago
    I prefer just ordering gadgets on amazon and have them delivered to my doorstep. Beats having to walk to the store :-)
  • bitcartel 14y ago
    I remember buying my first Commodore Amiga. A small, local store, where they let you play around with the machine and showed you games and demos. Friendly, no hard sell, and cash discount. The guys running the store would give you honest opinions about the software and hardware, they would tell you not to buy something if they figured it wasn't really what you needed. The Apple Store offers a great retail experience, it's streamlined to process sales quickly, and the staff are friendly, but I don't get the feeling they really care about what they're selling.
    • nsp 14y ago
      I worked as a specialist(sales) at Apple's highest grossing retail store(5th avenue) while finishing school last winter, and you're basically correct. Apple hires sales people almost entirely on the basis of attitude. The philosophy is essentially that you can teach them the basics(and telling customers you don't know and then going to find out is strongly encouraged) but its harder to teach customer service skills. There's no commission and was never any pressure to move through customers quickly. For 90% of the products apple sells, this strategy works pretty well. The exception is obviously macs, and even there 80% of your interactions require minimal knowledge. So you end up with friendly staff that's not particularly passionate about the tech specs. Which is clearly preferable the unknowledgeable and commission driven model of big box retailers, but a far cry from the small shops of the 90s. Overall it's a hard strategy to argue with. The demographics of computer users has changed dramatically since the heyday of the boutiques, and tailoring your strategy to target the enthusiast demographic tends to alienate the non tech savvy majority.
• LVB 14y ago
  The whole thing is starting to remind me a lot of conservative talk radio/TV. The clique of Apple tech pundit A-listers reliably delivers a predictable message to willing listeners/readers. They are not in general good tech reviewers IMHO, and they fill the gap with an exceedingly arrogant and condescending tone. But, like conservative broadcasters, they probably are making a lot of money doing their quasi-tech-related button pushing. It is a bit annoying to see apparently sharp people looking so often brainwashed, but I more or less ignore it at this point.
  • GuiA 14y ago
    Non-apple partisans see their counterparts as brainwashed idiots incapable of thinking beyond what a single company offers in a sleek packaging; and those in favor of Apple see the critics as tasteless individuals with no sense of design, and who just don't get what it means to build hardware purely for the end user. I doubt there's any way out of this :)
    • Ygg2 14y ago
      Sure there is. Determine the bias of people through empirical study. I've seen people "in love" with their iP*. Any claim against Apple they take as a personal insult, even when presented with fact after fact. It's annoying. In some way it's a bit like religion, really. Otoh I've seen anti-Apple people behave in the same way, hating Apple as it is the offspring of Great Old Ones and Satan. They might actually be only thing worst that Apple-lovers.
• nivla 14y ago
  Yes the whole article reeked of fanboyism at its peek. Why do we have to compare everything to Apple? Maybe I prefer USB ports and SD Slots over the unnoticeable weight and the retina display or maybe it is because I can finish up my office documents on the go. Just because it is not useful to you does not mean it won't be useful to anyone. Glad it doesn't happen with other things in real life, glad people have different tastes and preferences, else we will be living in a world with only one brand of car, one brand of clothing, one brand of ...
  • ghshephard 14y ago
    "Why do we have to compare everything to Apple?" - Because Marco is an Apple pundit? Because he makes his living creating and selling IOS software and services? I would think, by now, anybody on HN would know what what type of slant they would be getting on theloop, marco.org, parislemon, and daringfireball.
  • octotoad 14y ago
    He may be a fanboy, but in this case it makes perfect sense to compare something like the Surface tablet to similar Apple products. Yes, there are other tablet computers out there, and yes, tablets did exist before the iPad, but Apple's offering has become the mainstream benchmark for tablet computers, whether you like Apple or not.
  • eridius 14y ago
    Why do we have to compare everything to Apple? We don't. But it makes perfect sense to compare both the Surface tablet and Microsoft stores in general to Apple, as they are very explicitly trying to compete with Apple's dominance. Microsoft stores are even designed to resemble Apple stores, down to the employee uniforms, in a desperate attempt at cargo cult retailing. And given the success of the iPad, any tablet device made today is going to get compared to it.
  • corporalagumbo 14y ago
    Why? Well how about because everything Microsoft is doing reeks of the comparison? It's Microsoft who stamps their jealousy all over themselves, not bloggers. Plus, to compare the differences between Microsoft and Apple to rival car or clothing companies is just wilfully disingenuous. In consumer tech, they are the giants, and they are not even close to the parity in products or corporate culture that typify the markets you've chosen. Consumer tech is not a mature market. And the differences between Microsoft and Apple are glaring.
• ghshephard 14y ago
  Gruber Loves the Nokia Lumia. He's written quite a bit about how he appreciates its style. He's also quite intrigued by the metro style elements of Windows Phone 7.
  • JuDue 14y ago
    Agreed
• jopt 14y ago
  > if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial That's not what he said, that's out of context. You're extending it to some ridiculous extreme.
• bitcartel 14y ago
  If anybody is planning an anthology, the domain name for 'Fifty Shades of Apple' is still available.
• octotoad 14y ago
  I automatically interpreted that statement as a reference to the idea that Microsoft is kind of playing catch-up and suffering from a case of 'me too' in the world of tablets and brand-specific retail stores. I personally can't see anything pointing to an attitude of "if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial" coming from either the article author or Microsoft. The article's description of the Microsoft store experience and their staff basically makes me think of a small, stubborn child covering their ears and yelling "Blah, blah, blah. I can't hear you!" when competing products and companies are brought up.
• anthonyb 14y ago
  You have to wonder why he even bothered setting foot in the place.
• chj 14y ago
  > The whole "if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial" thing says more about the writer than the Microsoft store salesman. You misread the blog post. He described a lot of bad details regarding the usability. For example, sluggish rotating, the keyboard cover which is advertised as a distinguished feature isn't that good for typing. Overall this blog tells a lot of things that I haven't seen elsewhere.
  • balooner 14y ago
    and that tells you he is right and everybody else wrong?
• tammer 14y ago
  To me it's simply a matter of perspective. Personally, while I haven't used a Surface, I already know my opinions will fall precisely in line with Marco's. No one is right or wrong in this argument, all that matters in the end is which side has the majority that is most willing to fork over the cash. I can almost see the executives at the last company I worked for salivating over the Surface. Many, many people will always see Apple products as superficially limiting and excessively expensive (even when the PC alternative costs more). My liberal-minded art student friends? They've already got iPads. I think the dichotomy Neil Stephenson outlines in In the Beginning was the Command Line[1] is as true today as it ever was. Apple is Pepsi to MS's Coke, Obama to MS's Romney. Technology consumers fall into very distinct categories, and while Marco obviously falls into one of those, I think he does a good job of highlighting the difference in thought. This is why Microsoft exists and will continue to exist as long as Apple does. They are the anti-Apple. [1] http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html
• toddmorey 14y ago
  I don't think the Surface itself has any "elephants." While iOS may have the most time-tested and polished touch interface, I do think the Surface is doing some really interesting work to explore and redefine modern interfaces. You can call it imperfect for sure, but you have to admit it's innovative. Meanwhile, I do agree with Marco about the Microsoft Store. That is absolutely a strategy of copying what works in an Apple Store. It does feel a bit spooky, and I think they would have done their products a better service by showing the same innovation and creativity here, too.
  • MaysonL 14y ago
    Two expressions seem to fit the Microsoft Store: "uncanny valley" and "cargo cult".