5 ms·

What is Europe/USA fueled by? Debt. The Bubble. Is that sustainable? I don’t think so. What’s the point of the article? To prove the west’s superiority?

Krasnol 8mo ago
The West's part in this is also part of the article making the content of your comment superfluous. You'd know if you'd have read it. So what's the point of the comment? Your fear that it might be superior?
nosianu 8mo ago
> Debt That is the very basis of our currency, and the basic idea is a good one in an idea-heavy economy more reliant on innovation than natural resource constraints. Also, if truly becomes too much we will just have one of the many many currency changes. My grandparents lived with about five (could be as many as seven) currencies throughout their (German) lives, for example. As long as the real values remain, the factories, the people, the roads, the buildings, that is not a problem overall. It's not like people can emigrate to alien worlds, and on earth the places with the best real economy will be where they will go - have to go. Money is the carrot dangled in front of us to keep us moving and to create real value things. The carrot can be updated and changed if the current one starts to lose its appeal, it is not what ultimately matters. The point of view of an individual and the big picture are very different things.
- mdavid626 8mo ago
  So you say, that current debt levels are good?
  - nosianu 8mo ago
    I'm not sure why you ask me what I say. I left it as a written comment for you to peruse at any time and as many times as you want to see what I'm saying.
    - wiseowise 8mo ago
      Don’t bother responding, it’s one of the Russian trolls: - nuclear threat rhetoric https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051983 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051983 - news are propaganda https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47052056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47052056 - Unsustainable debt https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051964
    - mdavid626 8mo ago
      Yeah, my bad, the question might be for some other comment.
- falcor84 8mo ago
  And I'll just use this opportunity to recommend David Graeber's "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" - a wonderful book about the history of economy, demonstrating how it always boils down to effective use of debt. There are tons of great parts in it, but one that really stuck with me is his analysis of the social dynamics whereby when someone brings you a gift or otherwise does something expensive for you, you are temporarily in debt to them, and the polite expectation is that you always pay it back in a way whereby you give more than you owe, such that they will then be in debt to you (generally for approximately the same amount), and the relationship can continue oscillating, with each of you being in debt about half the time. Paying back exactly what you were given and not a penny more is thus considered to be an indication that you want to discontinue the relationship.
konart 8mo ago
I think you do not quite understand what debt is. Just like most people in our beloved Russia.
- mdavid626 8mo ago
  Or maybe you don’t understand what debt actually is.
  - konart 8mo ago
    Say I produce furniture. I borrow from you. I now have debt. I sell furniture. Now I can pay you back some part of it (up to 100%). You (and other parties) see that I'm quite good at what I do and my products sells. I now can borrow from you and other parties again to produce more (and possibly diversify my business). I sell more, I open new businesses etc. I pay you and other parties back. And borrow again. I can and will have debt (and it will grow over time) because this is what allows me and my business to grow. I can borrow and be in debt till the day I die. This basic concept is too foreign for people for whom "debt" is just a sum of money they borrowed from their friend and somehow now feel ashamed.
    - mdavid626 8mo ago
      I didn’t say debt is bad in general. I say the current amount of debt and the promise of we have unlimited money is what’s wrong.
      - wiseowise 8mo ago
        > we Of course мы do, tovarisch.
      - konart 8mo ago
        >I say the current amount of debt and the promise of we have unlimited money is what’s wrong. What does this have to do with "unlimited money"? USD is just a "contract". A trillion in debt is not the sum of fiat paper the US owes anybody.
simonh 8mo ago
There’s a decent article in the Economist right now warning of Brazilification in the west. A particular kind of debt fuelled economic death spiral on which Brazil is unfortunately a pioneer.

Krasnol 8mo ago

The West's part in this is also part of the article making the content of your comment superfluous. You'd know if you'd have read it. So what's the point of the comment? Your fear that it might be superior?

nosianu 8mo ago

> Debt That is the very basis of our currency, and the basic idea is a good one in an idea-heavy economy more reliant on innovation than natural resource constraints. Also, if truly becomes too much we will just have one of the many many currency changes. My grandparents lived with about five (could be as many as seven) currencies throughout their (German) lives, for example. As long as the real values remain, the factories, the people, the roads, the buildings, that is not a problem overall. It's not like people can emigrate to alien worlds, and on earth the places with the best real economy will be where they will go - have to go. Money is the carrot dangled in front of us to keep us moving and to create real value things. The carrot can be updated and changed if the current one starts to lose its appeal, it is not what ultimately matters. The point of view of an individual and the big picture are very different things.

mdavid626 8mo ago
So you say, that current debt levels are good?
- nosianu 8mo ago
  I'm not sure why you ask me what I say. I left it as a written comment for you to peruse at any time and as many times as you want to see what I'm saying.
  - wiseowise 8mo ago
    Don’t bother responding, it’s one of the Russian trolls: - nuclear threat rhetoric https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051983 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051983 - news are propaganda https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47052056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47052056 - Unsustainable debt https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47051964
  - mdavid626 8mo ago
    Yeah, my bad, the question might be for some other comment.
falcor84 8mo ago
And I'll just use this opportunity to recommend David Graeber's "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" - a wonderful book about the history of economy, demonstrating how it always boils down to effective use of debt. There are tons of great parts in it, but one that really stuck with me is his analysis of the social dynamics whereby when someone brings you a gift or otherwise does something expensive for you, you are temporarily in debt to them, and the polite expectation is that you always pay it back in a way whereby you give more than you owe, such that they will then be in debt to you (generally for approximately the same amount), and the relationship can continue oscillating, with each of you being in debt about half the time. Paying back exactly what you were given and not a penny more is thus considered to be an indication that you want to discontinue the relationship.

konart 8mo ago

I think you do not quite understand what debt is. Just like most people in our beloved Russia.

mdavid626 8mo ago
Or maybe you don’t understand what debt actually is.
- konart 8mo ago
  Say I produce furniture. I borrow from you. I now have debt. I sell furniture. Now I can pay you back some part of it (up to 100%). You (and other parties) see that I'm quite good at what I do and my products sells. I now can borrow from you and other parties again to produce more (and possibly diversify my business). I sell more, I open new businesses etc. I pay you and other parties back. And borrow again. I can and will have debt (and it will grow over time) because this is what allows me and my business to grow. I can borrow and be in debt till the day I die. This basic concept is too foreign for people for whom "debt" is just a sum of money they borrowed from their friend and somehow now feel ashamed.
  - mdavid626 8mo ago
    I didn’t say debt is bad in general. I say the current amount of debt and the promise of we have unlimited money is what’s wrong.
    - wiseowise 8mo ago
      > we Of course мы do, tovarisch.
    - konart 8mo ago
      >I say the current amount of debt and the promise of we have unlimited money is what’s wrong. What does this have to do with "unlimited money"? USD is just a "contract". A trillion in debt is not the sum of fiat paper the US owes anybody.

simonh 8mo ago

There’s a decent article in the Economist right now warning of Brazilification in the west. A particular kind of debt fuelled economic death spiral on which Brazil is unfortunately a pioneer.