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> So those of us that fight against becoming managers, it was for love of programming and the related technical details, as it usually comes with a payment and

> So those of us that fight against becoming managers, it was for love of programming and the related technical details, as it usually comes with a payment and career ceiling. I think quite a lot of these programmers don't fight against becoming a manager, but it's rather that they don't have traits (character traits, demeanour, low on dark triad traits (it is known that the selection process and work reality for managers actively selects for these), ...) that are necessary to get "selected" to become a manager.

pjmlp 8mo ago
In many career paths, after senior developer there are only management roles. Doesn't matter what traits they have, the only way up, to get that raise, additional benefits, or not being thrown into some improvement program is to accept becoming a manager in one of its various forms, or go elsewhere where hopefully there is a more sane career path.
- aleph_minus_one 8mo ago
  > Doesn't matter what traits they have, the only way up, to get that raise, additional benefits, or not being thrown into some improvement program is to accept becoming a manager in one of its various forms You did not get my point: it is not about non-acceptance of becoming a manager, but rather about having traits that commonly imply that "those in power" won't select you for becoming a manager.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    You are the one not getting it, there are companies where those in power only offer two pills, the red one allows to remain a company employee, the blue one means out willing or not. People aren't selected, they are dragged into their Peter principle role.
    - temp8830 8mo ago
      For those of us "not getting it" the only option on offer is the blue pill. Imagine that.
reilly3000 8mo ago
Maybe they choose not to exude those traits by choice (when a leader slot opens up), and can use them when they are circumstantially relevant. I have gone full founder, and I’m not happy with who I was. It’s an IC’s life for me. The only thing is, we’re all managers now. We’ve been given a fleet of robots to support a set of outcomes. We have to set expectations, monitor outputs, coach, intervene, step back, onboard new team members, train regularly, make sure they have the tools they need, etc and so on. Are those “soft skills” or just engineering? I’m curious if and how people are lacking in these areas when it’s just text.
aleph_minus_one 8mo ago
Correction: "low on dark triad traits" -> "high on dark triad traits"

pjmlp 8mo ago

In many career paths, after senior developer there are only management roles. Doesn't matter what traits they have, the only way up, to get that raise, additional benefits, or not being thrown into some improvement program is to accept becoming a manager in one of its various forms, or go elsewhere where hopefully there is a more sane career path.

aleph_minus_one 8mo ago
> Doesn't matter what traits they have, the only way up, to get that raise, additional benefits, or not being thrown into some improvement program is to accept becoming a manager in one of its various forms You did not get my point: it is not about non-acceptance of becoming a manager, but rather about having traits that commonly imply that "those in power" won't select you for becoming a manager.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  You are the one not getting it, there are companies where those in power only offer two pills, the red one allows to remain a company employee, the blue one means out willing or not. People aren't selected, they are dragged into their Peter principle role.
  - temp8830 8mo ago
    For those of us "not getting it" the only option on offer is the blue pill. Imagine that.

reilly3000 8mo ago

Maybe they choose not to exude those traits by choice (when a leader slot opens up), and can use them when they are circumstantially relevant. I have gone full founder, and I’m not happy with who I was. It’s an IC’s life for me. The only thing is, we’re all managers now. We’ve been given a fleet of robots to support a set of outcomes. We have to set expectations, monitor outputs, coach, intervene, step back, onboard new team members, train regularly, make sure they have the tools they need, etc and so on. Are those “soft skills” or just engineering? I’m curious if and how people are lacking in these areas when it’s just text.

aleph_minus_one 8mo ago

Correction: "low on dark triad traits" -> "high on dark triad traits"