5 ms·

We need Linux OSes and phones to catch up to really break free from this duopoly. Only when there is enough traction, essential infrastructure like banks will s

We need Linux OSes and phones to catch up to really break free from this duopoly. Only when there is enough traction, essential infrastructure like banks will start supporting Oses like that. It's a chicken and egg kind of problem.

gf000 8mo ago
Android is a Linux OS and is eons ahead anything that would sit on top of "GNU/Linux" userspace. Why start from scratch?
- galangalalgol 8mo ago
  Yeah, just need to decide where to start the fork. The larger problem is radio firmware. FCC regs were the initial excuse, for wifi and Bluetooth too, but we need to open up the source for all of these and allocate money for enforcement if we are truly worried people are going to start adding wifi channels etc. Open firmware phone radios would let you do things like truly turning off the radio when wifi was present, no gps ping even.
  - palata 8mo ago
    The good news being that the work made by Linux on Mobile projects regarding the radio firmware benefits AOSP projects, and inversely, right?
- pelzatessa 8mo ago
  I think that the main problem is that android has a lot of weird modifications that are not consistent with the rest of linux distros. The user data is suddenly in /data instead of /home, theres no package manager, no systemd (for better or worse), and there's hella lotta security gotchas, for example call recording is impossible without root as far as I know. I'm not saying that Android is not hackable, but it's a different type of hackability than desktop linux, you have to learn it all over again and in my opinion it's much harder to master than desktop linux. I've been on ubports for 3 years and while it also has some weird caveats like read only rootfs, no working package manager (due to read-only fs. however ubports has pretty cool support for lxc containers where you can use apt). Due to chronic lack of time I haven't been able to sit down on my phone to play with it a bit (for example id like to install waydroid), but it seems a lot easier than android. For example, while there isn't an app for call recording, some guy worked around it by writing a systemd user service as a workaround[1]. This is exactly the type of thing I'm thinking about when talking "linux phone". For me as a linux user, the difference if ubports was a human, I'd think that perhaps they were sick, whereas if android was a human, i'd shoot them in the face :) [1] https://forums.ubports.com/post/75157 https://forums.ubports.com/post/75157
  - tranq_cassowary 8mo ago
    If your criterium for choosing an OS is tinkering and hackability freedom to do modify almost anything to your liking (even if it will compeltely break your system or poke extra security holes in), then desktop Linux OSes ported to mobile might indeed be a good option. If your goal is security and privacy (which go hand in hand), mobile OSes are clearly the best solution. Anyway Android is still a Linux OS. The only requirement to be a Linux OS technically is to ship a Linux kernel. Adhering to freedesktop specifications like the FHS, using systemd, using GNU userspace software, etc. isn't necessary. On Android you can install software by installing directly from APK files or you can use application stores which are package manager, they help you install software and if there are dependencies they can also install the dependencies if they support that. Call recording is possible on multiple Android OSes, it's possible on stock PixelOS and GrapheneOS, I'm not sure about others but normally it's just part of the Dialer app. You don't need root at all for that.
palata 8mo ago
While I respect the Linux on Mobile work, I believe that AOSP is a lot better, with a much better security model. Remember that GrapheneOS is not Android: it's an AOSP-based OS.
- Hackbraten 8mo ago
  You’re not wrong. The thing that bothers me is that AOSP is being developed behind close doors and controlled by a single company which wields way too much power and control over our daily lives, and which has a track record of abusing that power.
  - palata 8mo ago
    Agreed. Though my hope is that AOSP could be forked. Without the contributions from Google, it would surely move slower, but... well it may work. I actually had hopes that Huawei would start that with HarmonyOS.
  - tranq_cassowary 8mo ago
    They for sure control the direction of the development but it's not really that problematic given that things downstream projects take issue with can just be removed from the source and things they want can be added.
svilen_dobrev 8mo ago
what happened to Sailfish? the successor of meego et-al It is finnish, anyone knows how are they going? i used that for 2 years, it's linux+kde bottom to top, a terminal + shell is a builtin, though only supporting 5+ years old Sony phones got tiresome. Still.. it seems the only one that's usable enough apart of the duopoly. May have to switch to it again.
- Paianni 8mo ago
  They have been underfunded for a decade now, with some unfortunate consequences - the web browser is based on Gecko 91.
  - strcat 8mo ago
    See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198.
- ttkari 8mo ago
  There's a new Jolla Phone in pre-marketing phase right now (almost 9000 phones have been pre-ordered so far). First device deliveries are scheduled for this summer and this should easily be the new benchmark for officially supported SailfishOS devices. The situation with Sony Xperia devices is not great, the best experience is still on the X10III (from 2021 I think) and there are significant issues with the support of 10 IV and V generation devices (a free beta release is available for those as well). It seems that recently there has been quite a lot of buzz in the Sailfish community compared to the past few years. In the public repos there are some interesting contributions like xdg-shell support for Lipstick, which looks set to enable compiling many previously unavailable Linux apps natively if that will actually be integrated in an upcoming OS version.
  - strcat 8mo ago
    See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198.
- 8mo ago

gf000 8mo ago

Android is a Linux OS and is eons ahead anything that would sit on top of "GNU/Linux" userspace. Why start from scratch?

galangalalgol 8mo ago
Yeah, just need to decide where to start the fork. The larger problem is radio firmware. FCC regs were the initial excuse, for wifi and Bluetooth too, but we need to open up the source for all of these and allocate money for enforcement if we are truly worried people are going to start adding wifi channels etc. Open firmware phone radios would let you do things like truly turning off the radio when wifi was present, no gps ping even.
- palata 8mo ago
  The good news being that the work made by Linux on Mobile projects regarding the radio firmware benefits AOSP projects, and inversely, right?
pelzatessa 8mo ago
I think that the main problem is that android has a lot of weird modifications that are not consistent with the rest of linux distros. The user data is suddenly in /data instead of /home, theres no package manager, no systemd (for better or worse), and there's hella lotta security gotchas, for example call recording is impossible without root as far as I know. I'm not saying that Android is not hackable, but it's a different type of hackability than desktop linux, you have to learn it all over again and in my opinion it's much harder to master than desktop linux. I've been on ubports for 3 years and while it also has some weird caveats like read only rootfs, no working package manager (due to read-only fs. however ubports has pretty cool support for lxc containers where you can use apt). Due to chronic lack of time I haven't been able to sit down on my phone to play with it a bit (for example id like to install waydroid), but it seems a lot easier than android. For example, while there isn't an app for call recording, some guy worked around it by writing a systemd user service as a workaround[1]. This is exactly the type of thing I'm thinking about when talking "linux phone". For me as a linux user, the difference if ubports was a human, I'd think that perhaps they were sick, whereas if android was a human, i'd shoot them in the face :) [1] https://forums.ubports.com/post/75157 https://forums.ubports.com/post/75157
- tranq_cassowary 8mo ago
  If your criterium for choosing an OS is tinkering and hackability freedom to do modify almost anything to your liking (even if it will compeltely break your system or poke extra security holes in), then desktop Linux OSes ported to mobile might indeed be a good option. If your goal is security and privacy (which go hand in hand), mobile OSes are clearly the best solution. Anyway Android is still a Linux OS. The only requirement to be a Linux OS technically is to ship a Linux kernel. Adhering to freedesktop specifications like the FHS, using systemd, using GNU userspace software, etc. isn't necessary. On Android you can install software by installing directly from APK files or you can use application stores which are package manager, they help you install software and if there are dependencies they can also install the dependencies if they support that. Call recording is possible on multiple Android OSes, it's possible on stock PixelOS and GrapheneOS, I'm not sure about others but normally it's just part of the Dialer app. You don't need root at all for that.

palata 8mo ago

While I respect the Linux on Mobile work, I believe that AOSP is a lot better, with a much better security model. Remember that GrapheneOS is not Android: it's an AOSP-based OS.

Hackbraten 8mo ago
You’re not wrong. The thing that bothers me is that AOSP is being developed behind close doors and controlled by a single company which wields way too much power and control over our daily lives, and which has a track record of abusing that power.
- palata 8mo ago
  Agreed. Though my hope is that AOSP could be forked. Without the contributions from Google, it would surely move slower, but... well it may work. I actually had hopes that Huawei would start that with HarmonyOS.
- tranq_cassowary 8mo ago
  They for sure control the direction of the development but it's not really that problematic given that things downstream projects take issue with can just be removed from the source and things they want can be added.

svilen_dobrev 8mo ago

what happened to Sailfish? the successor of meego et-al It is finnish, anyone knows how are they going? i used that for 2 years, it's linux+kde bottom to top, a terminal + shell is a builtin, though only supporting 5+ years old Sony phones got tiresome. Still.. it seems the only one that's usable enough apart of the duopoly. May have to switch to it again.

Paianni 8mo ago
They have been underfunded for a decade now, with some unfortunate consequences - the web browser is based on Gecko 91.
- strcat 8mo ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198.
ttkari 8mo ago
There's a new Jolla Phone in pre-marketing phase right now (almost 9000 phones have been pre-ordered so far). First device deliveries are scheduled for this summer and this should easily be the new benchmark for officially supported SailfishOS devices. The situation with Sony Xperia devices is not great, the best experience is still on the X10III (from 2021 I think) and there are significant issues with the support of 10 IV and V generation devices (a free beta release is available for those as well). It seems that recently there has been quite a lot of buzz in the Sailfish community compared to the past few years. In the public repos there are some interesting contributions like xdg-shell support for Lipstick, which looks set to enable compiling many previously unavailable Linux apps natively if that will actually be integrated in an upcoming OS version.
- strcat 8mo ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47053198.
8mo ago