15 ms·

From what I've gathered, they've decided to make this completely unusable without a Google- or Apple-approved smartphone. Horrible! Are individual banks even al

by mzajc 8mo ago

From what I've gathered, they've decided to make this completely unusable without a Google- or Apple-approved smartphone. Horrible! Are individual banks even allowed to make that an option for clients? Though even if they are, I doubt any will. I would LOVE a PayPal alternative, but this is just not it. -- From https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240401-What-devices-support-the-Wero-app https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240...: > It is not possible to use Wero via a web browser or on a computer.

zb3 8mo ago
Ah, so this EU wallet is only usable after US companies bless my device? Outstanding move!
- tormeh 8mo ago
  I think this is more about fees than sovereignty.
  - toomuchtodo 8mo ago
    It can be both, the plumbing is straight forward, simply a matter of will to implement. UPI in India, Pix in Brazil, FedNow in the US, etc. Trimmings are things like paying via QR code and alias support (phone, email IDs). Pix had native alias support, Wero is alias support on top of SEPA Instant payment rails (with a ~ten second settlement SLA). This gets you to utility cost recovery fee structures and sovereignty over your payment infra, versus other countries controlling your value transfer capabilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/instant_payments/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/instant_payments/html/...
- microtonal 8mo ago
  This is not a wallet (the name is a bit confusing). Wero (like iDEAL, which it is partly based on), is an online payment system directly backed by your bank account. This is an app that uses the Wero system for doing P2P payments (like Tikkie in The Netherlands). Most likely, Wero (like iDEAL) will also support alternative apps for P2P payments. Also, Wero will support in-store payments in the future, making Google Pay/Apple Pay unnecessary [1] unnecessary, which is a big win. [1] Strictly spoken it's unnecessary now as well, but then each bank needs to implement its own NFC app and most simply opt foor Google/Apple Pay.
  - vanviegen 8mo ago
    I think most/many banks had their own nfc tap-to-pay solution before Google/Apple Pay came along. Any idea why the banks chose to give that up?
    - TitaRusell 8mo ago
      Because it cost money to develop and Google/Apple Pay works really, really well everywhere on the planet.
      - vanviegen 8mo ago
        But they already had their own solutions that worked just fine. I can't see how switching to integrate a new system instead would save on dev costs. There surely must be some other reason?
    - andor 8mo ago
      On Smartcards yes, maybe Android, but certainly not on iPhones. On iOS, it's only been possible to implement alternatives to Apple Pay since 17.4 (2024), and only in Europe (EEA).
      - vanviegen 8mo ago
        Ah, I didn't realize the landscape was different on the Apple side of things.
bahmboo 8mo ago
That link is broken for me. I would like clarity if they support AOSP devices. That would be a meaningful departure from the status quo.
- bramhaag 8mo ago
  This one works for me https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240401-What-devices-support-the-Wero-app https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240...
  - bahmboo 8mo ago
    Thanks. Android 9 is the lowest they go version wise (which is ancient, 2018) but they don't say anything about Google requirements which is the real barrier.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
microtonal 8mo ago
As long as it works on a degoogled Android phone I'm fine with it. Maybe someone in the supported countries with an GraphenOS or /e/OS phone can confirm? Edit: for some banks it will just forward to the bank's app. So most likely it works as long as your bank supports degoogled Android, similar to how iDEAL + Tikkie works on degoogled Android with most Dutch banks.
- mzajc 8mo ago
  I should've been clearer - by Google-approved, I meant that your device has to pass Google's remote attestation scheme. From https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295313-I-m-seeing-this-error-message-Your-device-does-not-meet-our-security-requirements https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295...: > I’m seeing this error message: "Your device does not meet our security requirements". > /../ If the operating system is an Android variant (also called a 'custom ROM'), such as LineageOS or Pixel Experience, then the wero app can’t be installed for security reasons.
  - breisa 8mo ago
    The thing is, with most banks you aren't even allowed to use the Wero app that has this play integrity restriction. The banks integrate Wero directly into their own apps. So its mostly up to your bank.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    It does not say anything about remote attestation, only rooted/unlocked phones. Most likely it works fine if you run GrapheneOS with a locked bootloader. Many European banking apps work on degoogled Android like GrapheneOS or /e/OS fine, as long as you have locked the bootloader and USB debugging disabled.
cyberpunk 8mo ago
This is a regulatory thing, devices used for instant payments should be somehow attested and be authenticated (or be a physical device the bank issued e.g your card). It’s a difficult thing, we don’t want to have to force smartphone choices but the number of users without one these devices is so vanishingly small it’s very difficult to change the legislation in order to support them too. I think the happy middle ground is making this system also work with bank issued cards.
- linohh 8mo ago
  I don't see, why a smartphone plus NFC enabled token device wouldn't work within the regulation, we should go that way, (or any way decoupling Google & Co. from it) because we should be prepared for US companies to be forced to act unreasonably by an unreasonable leader.
  - cyberpunk 8mo ago
    I agree, I’m not saying it’s totally correct or there aren’t answers, but those are the current rules at least in my bank. Instant payments bypass typical surveillance and fraud systems and so need some kind of authentication, if you don’t want to 2fa every time you’re at the checkout then the application has to have been previously authenticated (e.g setup with some kinda TAN from your bank) and execute on an attested device. We can def extend attestation to other devices (e.g is the kernel modified, does the app have reasonable version and checksums etc) but again, who is gonna fund that for 10 users? edit: We have a long road to go before this stuff gets better, I think we should be happy at each step instead of really wishing we were already at the finish.
  - hocuspocus 8mo ago
    There's technical possibility and then real world practicality. For the same reason, a pure WebAuthn flow in a compliant browser could technically implement secure payment confirmation mandated by the DSP, but afaik no bank does that, and the W3C is still working on the spec. Our governments can't even manage not to depend on Microsoft/Google/AWS (and Palantir, the US military industrial complex, Israel, ...), our banks are regularly under the fire of extraterritorial bullshit due to the USD dependence. Being worried about consumer devices and their OS is cute, but it's missing the forest for the trees.
shock 8mo ago
Your link is broken for me. From https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295313-I-m-seeing-this-error-message-Your-device-does-not-meet-our-security-requirements https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295... it seems they don't even support phones with developer settings turned on, much less custom ROMs, rooted or jaibroken phones.
- mlry 8mo ago
  It works on a Pixel 6a with GrapheneOS.
  - shock 8mo ago
    If it works, it's by happenstance not officially. According to the link above (official FAQ): > If the operating system is an Android variant (also called a 'custom ROM'), such as LineageOS or Pixel Experience, then the wero app can’t be installed for security reasons.
- riedel 8mo ago
  And android will actually turn off certified state if you install open source apps that were not signed by a registered developer
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  Oh yeah that's a complete deal-breaker. I always have developer options on and I always will. Ridiculous. And yes there should be a web/desktop option. I don't understand why this was made so crap
maelito 8mo ago
I'm using my bank's app on a fully de-googlised Lineageos (no MicroG) and Wero works. But with another bank, when I had to install the Wero app, it didn't work at all.
kleiba 8mo ago
Oh, awesome, thanks. For someone like me who does not own a phone, this is valuable information. Now I know that I don't have to waste my time looking into this.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

by mzajc 8mo ago

zb3 8mo ago

Ah, so this EU wallet is only usable after US companies bless my device? Outstanding move!

tormeh 8mo ago
I think this is more about fees than sovereignty.
- toomuchtodo 8mo ago
  It can be both, the plumbing is straight forward, simply a matter of will to implement. UPI in India, Pix in Brazil, FedNow in the US, etc. Trimmings are things like paying via QR code and alias support (phone, email IDs). Pix had native alias support, Wero is alias support on top of SEPA Instant payment rails (with a ~ten second settlement SLA). This gets you to utility cost recovery fee structures and sovereignty over your payment infra, versus other countries controlling your value transfer capabilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/instant_payments/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/instant_payments/html/...
microtonal 8mo ago
This is not a wallet (the name is a bit confusing). Wero (like iDEAL, which it is partly based on), is an online payment system directly backed by your bank account. This is an app that uses the Wero system for doing P2P payments (like Tikkie in The Netherlands). Most likely, Wero (like iDEAL) will also support alternative apps for P2P payments. Also, Wero will support in-store payments in the future, making Google Pay/Apple Pay unnecessary [1] unnecessary, which is a big win. [1] Strictly spoken it's unnecessary now as well, but then each bank needs to implement its own NFC app and most simply opt foor Google/Apple Pay.
- vanviegen 8mo ago
  I think most/many banks had their own nfc tap-to-pay solution before Google/Apple Pay came along. Any idea why the banks chose to give that up?
  - TitaRusell 8mo ago
    Because it cost money to develop and Google/Apple Pay works really, really well everywhere on the planet.
    - vanviegen 8mo ago
      But they already had their own solutions that worked just fine. I can't see how switching to integrate a new system instead would save on dev costs. There surely must be some other reason?
  - andor 8mo ago
    On Smartcards yes, maybe Android, but certainly not on iPhones. On iOS, it's only been possible to implement alternatives to Apple Pay since 17.4 (2024), and only in Europe (EEA).
    - vanviegen 8mo ago
      Ah, I didn't realize the landscape was different on the Apple side of things.

bahmboo 8mo ago

That link is broken for me. I would like clarity if they support AOSP devices. That would be a meaningful departure from the status quo.

bramhaag 8mo ago
This one works for me https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240401-What-devices-support-the-Wero-app https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240...
- bahmboo 8mo ago
  Thanks. Android 9 is the lowest they go version wise (which is ancient, 2018) but they don't say anything about Google requirements which is the real barrier.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

microtonal 8mo ago

As long as it works on a degoogled Android phone I'm fine with it. Maybe someone in the supported countries with an GraphenOS or /e/OS phone can confirm? Edit: for some banks it will just forward to the bank's app. So most likely it works as long as your bank supports degoogled Android, similar to how iDEAL + Tikkie works on degoogled Android with most Dutch banks.

mzajc 8mo ago
I should've been clearer - by Google-approved, I meant that your device has to pass Google's remote attestation scheme. From https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295313-I-m-seeing-this-error-message-Your-device-does-not-meet-our-security-requirements https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295...: > I’m seeing this error message: "Your device does not meet our security requirements". > /../ If the operating system is an Android variant (also called a 'custom ROM'), such as LineageOS or Pixel Experience, then the wero app can’t be installed for security reasons.
- breisa 8mo ago
  The thing is, with most banks you aren't even allowed to use the Wero app that has this play integrity restriction. The banks integrate Wero directly into their own apps. So its mostly up to your bank.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  It does not say anything about remote attestation, only rooted/unlocked phones. Most likely it works fine if you run GrapheneOS with a locked bootloader. Many European banking apps work on degoogled Android like GrapheneOS or /e/OS fine, as long as you have locked the bootloader and USB debugging disabled.

cyberpunk 8mo ago

This is a regulatory thing, devices used for instant payments should be somehow attested and be authenticated (or be a physical device the bank issued e.g your card). It’s a difficult thing, we don’t want to have to force smartphone choices but the number of users without one these devices is so vanishingly small it’s very difficult to change the legislation in order to support them too. I think the happy middle ground is making this system also work with bank issued cards.

linohh 8mo ago
I don't see, why a smartphone plus NFC enabled token device wouldn't work within the regulation, we should go that way, (or any way decoupling Google & Co. from it) because we should be prepared for US companies to be forced to act unreasonably by an unreasonable leader.
- cyberpunk 8mo ago
  I agree, I’m not saying it’s totally correct or there aren’t answers, but those are the current rules at least in my bank. Instant payments bypass typical surveillance and fraud systems and so need some kind of authentication, if you don’t want to 2fa every time you’re at the checkout then the application has to have been previously authenticated (e.g setup with some kinda TAN from your bank) and execute on an attested device. We can def extend attestation to other devices (e.g is the kernel modified, does the app have reasonable version and checksums etc) but again, who is gonna fund that for 10 users? edit: We have a long road to go before this stuff gets better, I think we should be happy at each step instead of really wishing we were already at the finish.
- hocuspocus 8mo ago
  There's technical possibility and then real world practicality. For the same reason, a pure WebAuthn flow in a compliant browser could technically implement secure payment confirmation mandated by the DSP, but afaik no bank does that, and the W3C is still working on the spec. Our governments can't even manage not to depend on Microsoft/Google/AWS (and Palantir, the US military industrial complex, Israel, ...), our banks are regularly under the fire of extraterritorial bullshit due to the USD dependence. Being worried about consumer devices and their OS is cute, but it's missing the forest for the trees.

shock 8mo ago

Your link is broken for me. From https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295313-I-m-seeing-this-error-message-Your-device-does-not-meet-our-security-requirements https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599098295... it seems they don't even support phones with developer settings turned on, much less custom ROMs, rooted or jaibroken phones.

mlry 8mo ago
It works on a Pixel 6a with GrapheneOS.
- shock 8mo ago
  If it works, it's by happenstance not officially. According to the link above (official FAQ): > If the operating system is an Android variant (also called a 'custom ROM'), such as LineageOS or Pixel Experience, then the wero app can’t be installed for security reasons.
riedel 8mo ago
And android will actually turn off certified state if you install open source apps that were not signed by a registered developer
wolvoleo 8mo ago
Oh yeah that's a complete deal-breaker. I always have developer options on and I always will. Ridiculous. And yes there should be a web/desktop option. I don't understand why this was made so crap

maelito 8mo ago

I'm using my bank's app on a fully de-googlised Lineageos (no MicroG) and Wero works. But with another bank, when I had to install the Wero app, it didn't work at all.

kleiba 8mo ago

Oh, awesome, thanks. For someone like me who does not own a phone, this is valuable information. Now I know that I don't have to waste my time looking into this.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]