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I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it. I wouldn't hope for any long-term peace between IL and su

I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it. I wouldn't hope for any long-term peace between IL and surrounding country without IL holding a very big stick which the US gives to them. I think actually they are in a bit of panic mode because the US might want to get out from the ME and focus on China. They want a guarantee that Iran won't be able to come on its foot again in at least 10 years. That's all my guess, though.

Cyph0n 8mo ago
So the solution is for Israel to get an even bigger “stick” than nuclear weapons? How about a just solution for the Palestinians instead?
- markus_zhang 8mo ago
  Who is going to do that? Obviously not in anyone's interests. That is, anyone who can push the situation towards that direction.
  - Cyph0n 8mo ago
    You’re either missing my point or deflecting. Let me expand one last time. Israel claims to be threatened by its neighbors. Israel claims to want peace with countries in the region. Neighboring countries have repeatedly stated that a precondition to normalization is a just solution for Palestinians. But Israel does not want a just solution. In other words, the problem is entirely self-inflicted. Israel wants peace, but without making any concessions on the issue of Palestine. So instead it pursues a system of “peace through violence” - just like it does in the West Bank and Gaza.
    - throw2845893 8mo ago
      This is bullshit. Between 1948 and 1967 the entire West Bank and Gaza were under control of neighbouring Arab countries. They could’ve set up a Palestinian state within “the 1967 borders”, but nobody did. Instead they went to war to try and take the rest. Besides, Israel has since made peace with Egypt and Jordan.
      - Cyph0n 8mo ago
        Okay, and? Do you think the fact that neighbors having their own expansionist ambitions is somehow a “gotcha”? And given the whole Greater Israel plan, do you seriously think that Israel would have even allowed this to happen? Now, back to the present day. Palestinians live under a system of occupation and blockade and recently genocide. This is not a just situation. It is also not sustainable without continued repression and use of force. There is no way that Israel will be welcomed into the wider ME under this regime.
        reliabilityguy 8mo ago
        > And given the whole Greater Israel plan What is this “plan”? > Palestinians live under a system of occupation and blockade What did the Palestinians do to not end up in this situation? > genocide War is not genocide. And remarks by some of the politicians are not a proof of genocide as well. > There is no way that Israel will be welcomed into the wider ME under this regime. Israel just need to be stronger to survive as they did in the first 20-30 years of their statehood.
    - halflife 8mo ago
      There peace with Jordan and Egypt. 2 countries that were at war with Israel, Egypt got Sinai back, Jordan did not want the West Bank back.
      - Cyph0n 8mo ago
        What do you mean by “back”? The West Bank was never legitimately part of Jordan - they forcibly annexed it in 1948. As for the peace treaties: Jordan simply did not have the ability to fight Israel any longer, or to deal with Palestinian factions operating in its territory. Egypt wanted its land back after failing to reclaim it in 1973.
        reliabilityguy 8mo ago
        > What do you mean by “back”? > Egypt wanted its land back after failing to reclaim it in 1973. It seems you are aware that peace deal with Egypt is what got Sinai back to Egypt.
        Cyph0n 8mo ago
        Regarding this comment specifically, if you took the time to read the next sentence, you would have understood that “back” is referring to Jordan. I have read your other comments. I am not going to engage further, for two reasons: 1. You’re a bit late to the party, and I primarily respond to engage with readers. 2. You’re clearly coming in with a closed mind.
        reliabilityguy 8mo ago
        What a wonderful way to not discuss the facts and claims made by you on their merits. Also, I am not sure how you can imply that you are unbiased.
dgxyz 8mo ago
I think also everyone needs to understand that Israel are a wedge in the operations of rival Islamic terrorist factions. If they went poof and ceased to exist suddenly then it'd switch straight to Darfur mode out there. It wouldn't suddenly be kumbaya and holding hands.
baud147258 8mo ago
> I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it. Maybe by starting to behave as if the Palestinian population that live on the territory they control have equal rights? Like stopping West Bank colonization projects?
- halflife 8mo ago
  2006 Gaza was left to their own independent rule. Shortly after that Hamas killed the PLO, assumed control, and started fire rockets into Israel. And you’re saying that we need to try that again with the West Bank?
  - Cyph0n 8mo ago
    That’s not what happened. You (unintentionally I am sure) glossed over the elections being overruled by the US and Israel, the attempted coup by Fatah in Gaza, and the subsequent blockade.
    - halflife 8mo ago
      The blockade started after the rockets. And how can US and Israel overrule elections in Gaza? Fatah wanted a coup because they lost to Hamas. That’s why there’s no election in the West Bank.
      - Cyph0n 8mo ago
        Read up on the election here, tired of responding in this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election?wprov=sfti1#US_post-election_impediments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... On rocket attacks, Hamas was sticking relatively well to the ceasefire (again, talking about Hamas, not other groups). The blockade was tightened by Israel post-takeover, which then lead to a resumption of rocket attacks.
        reliabilityguy 8mo ago

Cyph0n 8mo ago

So the solution is for Israel to get an even bigger “stick” than nuclear weapons? How about a just solution for the Palestinians instead?

markus_zhang 8mo ago
Who is going to do that? Obviously not in anyone's interests. That is, anyone who can push the situation towards that direction.
- Cyph0n 8mo ago
  You’re either missing my point or deflecting. Let me expand one last time. Israel claims to be threatened by its neighbors. Israel claims to want peace with countries in the region. Neighboring countries have repeatedly stated that a precondition to normalization is a just solution for Palestinians. But Israel does not want a just solution. In other words, the problem is entirely self-inflicted. Israel wants peace, but without making any concessions on the issue of Palestine. So instead it pursues a system of “peace through violence” - just like it does in the West Bank and Gaza.
  - throw2845893 8mo ago
    This is bullshit. Between 1948 and 1967 the entire West Bank and Gaza were under control of neighbouring Arab countries. They could’ve set up a Palestinian state within “the 1967 borders”, but nobody did. Instead they went to war to try and take the rest. Besides, Israel has since made peace with Egypt and Jordan.
    - Cyph0n 8mo ago
      Okay, and? Do you think the fact that neighbors having their own expansionist ambitions is somehow a “gotcha”? And given the whole Greater Israel plan, do you seriously think that Israel would have even allowed this to happen? Now, back to the present day. Palestinians live under a system of occupation and blockade and recently genocide. This is not a just situation. It is also not sustainable without continued repression and use of force. There is no way that Israel will be welcomed into the wider ME under this regime.
      - reliabilityguy 8mo ago
        > And given the whole Greater Israel plan What is this “plan”? > Palestinians live under a system of occupation and blockade What did the Palestinians do to not end up in this situation? > genocide War is not genocide. And remarks by some of the politicians are not a proof of genocide as well. > There is no way that Israel will be welcomed into the wider ME under this regime. Israel just need to be stronger to survive as they did in the first 20-30 years of their statehood.
  - halflife 8mo ago
    There peace with Jordan and Egypt. 2 countries that were at war with Israel, Egypt got Sinai back, Jordan did not want the West Bank back.
    - Cyph0n 8mo ago
      What do you mean by “back”? The West Bank was never legitimately part of Jordan - they forcibly annexed it in 1948. As for the peace treaties: Jordan simply did not have the ability to fight Israel any longer, or to deal with Palestinian factions operating in its territory. Egypt wanted its land back after failing to reclaim it in 1973.
      - reliabilityguy 8mo ago
        > What do you mean by “back”? > Egypt wanted its land back after failing to reclaim it in 1973. It seems you are aware that peace deal with Egypt is what got Sinai back to Egypt.
        Cyph0n 8mo ago
        Regarding this comment specifically, if you took the time to read the next sentence, you would have understood that “back” is referring to Jordan. I have read your other comments. I am not going to engage further, for two reasons: 1. You’re a bit late to the party, and I primarily respond to engage with readers. 2. You’re clearly coming in with a closed mind.
        reliabilityguy 8mo ago
        What a wonderful way to not discuss the facts and claims made by you on their merits. Also, I am not sure how you can imply that you are unbiased.

dgxyz 8mo ago

I think also everyone needs to understand that Israel are a wedge in the operations of rival Islamic terrorist factions. If they went poof and ceased to exist suddenly then it'd switch straight to Darfur mode out there. It wouldn't suddenly be kumbaya and holding hands.

baud147258 8mo ago

> I don't disagree with you, but this is the reality already and I don't see how they can get out of it. Maybe by starting to behave as if the Palestinian population that live on the territory they control have equal rights? Like stopping West Bank colonization projects?

halflife 8mo ago
2006 Gaza was left to their own independent rule. Shortly after that Hamas killed the PLO, assumed control, and started fire rockets into Israel. And you’re saying that we need to try that again with the West Bank?
- Cyph0n 8mo ago
  That’s not what happened. You (unintentionally I am sure) glossed over the elections being overruled by the US and Israel, the attempted coup by Fatah in Gaza, and the subsequent blockade.
  - halflife 8mo ago
    The blockade started after the rockets. And how can US and Israel overrule elections in Gaza? Fatah wanted a coup because they lost to Hamas. That’s why there’s no election in the West Bank.
    - Cyph0n 8mo ago
      Read up on the election here, tired of responding in this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election?wprov=sfti1#US_post-election_impediments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... On rocket attacks, Hamas was sticking relatively well to the ceasefire (again, talking about Hamas, not other groups). The blockade was tightened by Israel post-takeover, which then lead to a resumption of rocket attacks.
      - reliabilityguy 8mo ago