5 ms·

I'm not interested really in how something behaves, that's an accounting or record keeping task. I am interested in why it behaves a certain way, or what it is.

I'm not interested really in how something behaves, that's an accounting or record keeping task. I am interested in why it behaves a certain way, or what it is. Why does the earth go around the sun? We're told it's because of space time curvature. Curvature of what? Where is space time and what it is made of that it has a shape or geometry? There is no ether, space is not made of anything. Yet it has a shape, or at least there is some accounting going on somewhere that keeps everything moving like it's supposed to. Where is that, what's the mechanism? What we have is a mathematical model that fits the data, but doesn't explain anything. Yes, A behaves in a certain way when B is in a certain position relative to A, we can model that and we call that relativity or whatever, but what is the mechanism? That's where the abstraction is. Are we satisfied with modelling an alien system that we can't understand in any other way? To me that's not that interesting, it just leads to getting lost in abstractions. Maybe relativity will be replaced by a more complicated model that covers more edge cases, but that doesn't tell you what it is. It just tells you how it behaves, as you said. It's like if what you thought was your dog meowed and liked to climb trees instead of barking and chasing squirrels. You don't know what it is anymore, it's not a cat it's not a dog, you don't know what it is but you can model it's behavior. That's what you're forced into. The familiarity is gone. Acting like that's some big accomplishment or achievement is a cop out. We found out the universe is not amenable to our knowing it with any familiarity. Is that something to celebrate? No, it's like finding out your parents were androids. So what are we left with, just accounting rules and accounting models. All they'll give us are ways to make better tools.

drdeca 8mo ago
Your concept of “explains” seems like nonsense to me. “what’s the mechanism?”? “[…] but that doesn't tell you what it is. It just tells you how it behaves […]”? A thing is what it does. C.f. the Yoneda lemma. Again, your complaints sound like dissatisfaction with the fact that the world doesn’t run on stuff that fundamentally resembles substances we have everyday familiarity with. You speak of “fitting the data”. I say “is compatible with the evidence”. Also, asking where spacetime is, is a goofy question. Oh, I see, you are expecting intrinsic curvature to derive from extrinsic curvature? There is no need for that. You could posit a larger (flat) space to allow that, but there is no reason to, as it would be indistinguishable from the simpler alternative. “ We found out the universe is not amenable to our knowing it with any familiarity.” : You have to remember: it all adds up to normality. Any part of how the world works that seems “weird”, was already like that before you learned of it, and is, in fact, normal. When I said “take it up with God”, that wasn’t just a figure of speech. Isiah 55:8-9 : “ “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” God’s thoughts, God’s designs, are greater than our own. If how the universe functions offends our sensibilities, it is our sensibilities that need to change. At the same time, Philippians 4:8 : “ Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” You say “ All they'll give us are ways to make better tools.” , but, better tools? This is certainly not my motivation! My motivation is to know truth! And, there is much that is both lovely and true in what you dismiss as “models that fit the data”.
- squeefers 8mo ago
  > When I said “take it up with God”, that wasn’t just a figure of speech. Isiah 55:8-9 how come our lord and saviour only seemed to do magic tricks around 2000 years ago? has he lost mana or something?
  - drdeca 8mo ago
    You seem to be asking about “divine hiddenness”. I don’t know why God doesn’t make His existence more obvious to those that don’t seek Him. Like I quoted above, his ways are above our ways. That’s not to say that the reason is definitely beyond what I can comprehend, just that it is beyond what I do comprehend. (On the off chance that you were being sincere in your question about mana: no.) The point I was trying to make by quoting that passage was the necessity of humility. The way the world works doesn’t need our approval. It is above us.
    - squeefers 8mo ago
      > I don’t know why God doesn’t make His existence more obvious to those that don’t seek Him i didnt ask that and you know it. why doesnt he do headline magic tricks like feeding the five thousand or sending beasts down from heaven or raising zombie jesus from the dead? is it because those stories arent true? > Like I quoted above, his ways are above our ways. youre religion does calim to know however... how do they claim to such privileged knowledge? what do they know that we dont?
- albatross79 8mo ago
  > Again, your complaints sound like dissatisfaction with the fact that the world doesn’t run on stuff that fundamentally resembles substances we have everyday familiarity with. Ok, so you tell me, what does it run on? Intrinsic curvature and virtual particles, or what?
  - drdeca 8mo ago
    I wouldn’t say it “runs on” virtual particles per se. I think the virtual particle terms are more tracking the interactions between different fields. I would say it runs on quantum fields on a curved spacetime, yeah. And, as for what precisely a quantum field is, this is somewhat mysterious, but generally it is a quantum version of a classical field, where there is a value (e.g. “value of the electromagnetic field”) at each point in spacetime. For quantum fields, instead of each point having a definite value, for any region there is an observable for the total value in that region. As for how the curvature of spacetime fits with all that, that is an open question that has yet to be resolved. Well, constructing a quantum field theory within a given curved spacetime is fine, but we don’t know how exactly GR and QFT fit together. I expect that your response is going to be to call these “abstractions” or something, as if this does anything more to discredit them than complaining that any idea is “just an idea”. But these are measurable things. That which can be measured is a real thing.

drdeca 8mo ago

Your concept of “explains” seems like nonsense to me. “what’s the mechanism?”? “[…] but that doesn't tell you what it is. It just tells you how it behaves […]”? A thing is what it does. C.f. the Yoneda lemma. Again, your complaints sound like dissatisfaction with the fact that the world doesn’t run on stuff that fundamentally resembles substances we have everyday familiarity with. You speak of “fitting the data”. I say “is compatible with the evidence”. Also, asking where spacetime is, is a goofy question. Oh, I see, you are expecting intrinsic curvature to derive from extrinsic curvature? There is no need for that. You could posit a larger (flat) space to allow that, but there is no reason to, as it would be indistinguishable from the simpler alternative. “ We found out the universe is not amenable to our knowing it with any familiarity.” : You have to remember: it all adds up to normality. Any part of how the world works that seems “weird”, was already like that before you learned of it, and is, in fact, normal. When I said “take it up with God”, that wasn’t just a figure of speech. Isiah 55:8-9 : “ “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” God’s thoughts, God’s designs, are greater than our own. If how the universe functions offends our sensibilities, it is our sensibilities that need to change. At the same time, Philippians 4:8 : “ Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” You say “ All they'll give us are ways to make better tools.” , but, better tools? This is certainly not my motivation! My motivation is to know truth! And, there is much that is both lovely and true in what you dismiss as “models that fit the data”.

squeefers 8mo ago
> When I said “take it up with God”, that wasn’t just a figure of speech. Isiah 55:8-9 how come our lord and saviour only seemed to do magic tricks around 2000 years ago? has he lost mana or something?
- drdeca 8mo ago
  You seem to be asking about “divine hiddenness”. I don’t know why God doesn’t make His existence more obvious to those that don’t seek Him. Like I quoted above, his ways are above our ways. That’s not to say that the reason is definitely beyond what I can comprehend, just that it is beyond what I do comprehend. (On the off chance that you were being sincere in your question about mana: no.) The point I was trying to make by quoting that passage was the necessity of humility. The way the world works doesn’t need our approval. It is above us.
  - squeefers 8mo ago
    > I don’t know why God doesn’t make His existence more obvious to those that don’t seek Him i didnt ask that and you know it. why doesnt he do headline magic tricks like feeding the five thousand or sending beasts down from heaven or raising zombie jesus from the dead? is it because those stories arent true? > Like I quoted above, his ways are above our ways. youre religion does calim to know however... how do they claim to such privileged knowledge? what do they know that we dont?
albatross79 8mo ago
> Again, your complaints sound like dissatisfaction with the fact that the world doesn’t run on stuff that fundamentally resembles substances we have everyday familiarity with. Ok, so you tell me, what does it run on? Intrinsic curvature and virtual particles, or what?
- drdeca 8mo ago
  I wouldn’t say it “runs on” virtual particles per se. I think the virtual particle terms are more tracking the interactions between different fields. I would say it runs on quantum fields on a curved spacetime, yeah. And, as for what precisely a quantum field is, this is somewhat mysterious, but generally it is a quantum version of a classical field, where there is a value (e.g. “value of the electromagnetic field”) at each point in spacetime. For quantum fields, instead of each point having a definite value, for any region there is an observable for the total value in that region. As for how the curvature of spacetime fits with all that, that is an open question that has yet to be resolved. Well, constructing a quantum field theory within a given curved spacetime is fine, but we don’t know how exactly GR and QFT fit together. I expect that your response is going to be to call these “abstractions” or something, as if this does anything more to discredit them than complaining that any idea is “just an idea”. But these are measurable things. That which can be measured is a real thing.