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You got this all wrong. First of all Netanyahu is not a war criminal. He has not been convicted of any war crimes. Even if for a microsecond we entertain the i

by YZF 8mo ago

You got this all wrong. First of all Netanyahu is not a war criminal. He has not been convicted of any war crimes. Even if for a microsecond we entertain the idea that the ICC has any relationship to justice or morality then people are still innocent until proven guilty. At least in the world we want to live in, i.e. not China or Russia or most other countries where freedom and human rights do not exist. And the ICC is a political circus not a real court. The US is going after the ICC because it perceives the ICC to be working against its interests and for the interests of the non-free/non-democratic world. If the spinless Europeans weren't, eh, spineless, then they would be working with the US here. It is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US. Just because you make a disclaimer doesn't make it less so. Israel has no hold over the US. Last I checked the Saudis and the Qatari have a lot more influence. It just happens that there is an alignment of interests here. The US doesn't wish to yield any sovereignty to these fake and corrupt institutions serving autocratic regimes any more than Israel does. Israel carries its weight in its alliance with the US far more than other so called allies. Every decent person and country should be standing with other countries that support democracy and freedom. Yes, the current US president and administration are not great, and the current Israeli government ain't great either, but at least in democracies we can replace them. Unlike most of the world that's a) much worse b) people have no voice. So between the option of our imperfect western democracies and the likes of Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, I know what I'm picking. And those are the forces seeking to divide and destroy the west so that they can take over.

snowpid 8mo ago
" The US is going after the ICC because it perceives the ICC to be working against its interests and for the interests of the non-free/non-democratic world. If the spinless Europeans weren't, eh, spineless, then they would be working with the US here. " Why? What are the interest of the free world? "Every decent person and country should be standing with other countries that support democracy and freedom." Netanyahu has some problems with the constitutional court in Israel + corruption allegations. If he succeeds, Israel might become authoritarian and though there is a growing antisemitism some Israel consider leaving Israel because of him.
- YZF 8mo ago
  As we used to say when we were kids, if your grandmother had wheels she would be a bus. Yes, Israel's democracy is under threat, very much fueled by those same external forces impact other western countries, social media and such. The interest of the free world. In my opinion. Is to promote freedom and not give power to countries that are not free or democratic (which is most of the world). The UN primarily represents the non-free forces and its institutions similarly the same. https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/523711/Iran-elected-as-vice-chair-of-UN-Commission-for-Social-Development https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/523711/Iran-elected-as-vice... We need to fight for democracy in Israel and the US just the same way we fight for it everywhere.
  - elzbardico 8mo ago
    Israel is a ethno-state and an apartheid regime. Don’t call this a Democracy, please.
    - YZF 8mo ago
      It is a democracy within its legal internationally recognized borders. There is no apartheid in Israel. It's no more "ethno-state" than let's say Japan or Switzerland, in fact it is a lot more ethnically diverse with 2 million Arab citizens. There is the problem of the occupied territories (which Israel's law considers occupied in alignment with international practices) where people in limbo due to the unresolved status. That's not apartheid (despite Israeli citizens being treated differently in those territories). Maybe legally and morally questionable but how we got here and why we can't fix this is also relevant.
    - csmpltn 8mo ago
      [flagged]
    - reliabilityguy 8mo ago
      > Israel is a ethno-state and an apartheid regime. Don’t call this a Democracy, please. Ireland and Poland (as well as many other countries) are ethno-states too. Did they stop being democracies? Last I checked, the vote of israeli non-Jews counted the same way as the israeli Jewish one. How can Israel be an apartheid state if Arabs in Israel routinely take highest positions in both public and private sector? It makes zero sense.
llm_nerd 8mo ago
"He has not been convicted of any war crimes." There is an arrest warrant out for him. He hasn't been convicted, but he should show up at that Hague and defend himself. When literally EVERY SINGLE DEVELOPED COUNTRY but the US and Israel is a member of the ICC, and those two happen to be largely the biggest perpetrators of war crimes, this "political theatre" act falls a bit flat. Oh look, the US is committing terrorism and blowing up random boats again, even double tapping as yet another war crimin' activity. Howler. What a bastion of goodness. Yeah, positively no one cares what that terroristic plutocracy thinks is right or wrong. "It is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US" LOL, no it absolutely is not. The fact that Israel-apologists have to do this bit is pathetic business. It's intellectual garbage, immediately dismissible as a distraction. The US relationship with Israel makes literally zero sense. Israel offers absolutely nothing to the US but geopolitical problems. Nothing. The US constantly burns actually valuable relationships in the service of that nuclear-armed international pariah. Congresspeople will literally, directly say Israel first. One member proudly wore his Israeli military uniform in the House. Just bizarre, unfathomable behaviour time and time again, and if anyone showed that sort of bizarre loyalty to any other country they would be rightly declared a foreign asset and a traitor. Oh look, congress gave Netanyahu a four minute standing ovation, apparently for his largess of trying to drag the US into wars and demanding US taxpayer dollars. What a great guy. Bizarre stuff. As to democracies...are we pretending the US is a democracy, or that it has rules and laws? I suspect the midterms are going to disabuse you of that foolish notion.
- YZF 8mo ago
  > It's intellectual garbage, immediately dismissible as a distraction. Absolutely false. This is standard antisemitic MO. The "Jews" control the media, the "Jews" control the US, The "Jews" control money. This is yet another permutation of the age old antisemitism just s/jews/zionists/ and s/jews/israel/ it's used by the same people and with the same intent belief. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. The intellectual garbage is coming from people who claim this is not antisemitic. US relationship with Israel makes perfect sense. It started during the cold war when Israel was aligned with the US against the Arab countries aligned with the USSR. The US gets to test its weapons systems and benefit from Israel defense technology know-how. Post 9/11 and with the rise of organizations like ISIS it also benefited the US greatly to have a partner in this unstable region called the middle east. I'm not aware of any US congress member that has declared their allegiance to Israel trumps their being American. But hey, any single member of any parliament can always be off the rails and the US has no shortage of those. But give me a specific example? What is understandable is that Americans consider Israel and Israelis their friends and allies and at challenging times friends support their friends and not stab them in the back like some have done.
unethical_ban 8mo ago
> is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US. Sure. Ignore AIPAC. Sure, build a false dichotomy that we either support Israel unconditionally or we hate Jews and support every antidemocratic nation in the eastern hemisphere. Sure, further propagate antisemitism by intentionally conflating any criticism of Israel the government with the religion of Judaism. I can be critical of Qatar and Saudia Arabia and China and Russia and Israel, for all the necessary reasons.
- YZF 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - unethical_ban 8mo ago
    AIPAC and CAIR do not have the same influence over US policy or politicians. Come on.
    - YZF 8mo ago
      [flagged]
      - llm_nerd 8mo ago
        Ah, now it's actually jealousy. Just moments ago you called making such an observation antisemitism. Hilarious stuff.
        YZF 8mo ago
        If you were Jewish you would not find this so funny. Yes, antisemitism is partly fueled by jealousy. The observation above that "Jews have a hold on the US" is antisemitism. Saying Jews are very successful because they work hard and they get stuff done despite all the hate is not antisemitism.
- elzbardico 8mo ago
  I think the Cuban exiled community in Florida have too much of a hold on US politics as they leverage their local power a lot given FL is a swing state. Weirdly, making this kind of criticism never warranted me a label of anti-Hispanic or anti-Cuban.
b00ty4breakfast 8mo ago
You're correct in that Israel doesn't have a hold over the US (it would be silly to assume that a pissant country could have the resources to control the [at time of writing] most prominent country in world), but they are a US client-state and thus receive preferential treatment when it suits US foreign-policy in the Middle East.
- YZF 8mo ago
  I can agree with this statement. If anything Israel does whatever the US tells it to do and is completely dependent on US support. client-state sounds like a reasonable description of the current reality.
- direwolf20 8mo ago
  It could be either way around, really. On the one hand, Israel has no military force apart from what the US gives it. On the other hand, Israel has the Epstein tapes (not the files) so it might be rational for a majority of US politicians to just do whatever it asks for.
elzbardico 8mo ago
Tl;Dr version: Israeli Propaganda version of the facts.
- reliabilityguy 8mo ago
  Instead of saying that something is propaganda, you can disprove factually incorrect points with evidence. NH is not reddit or twitter.

by YZF 8mo ago

snowpid 8mo ago

" The US is going after the ICC because it perceives the ICC to be working against its interests and for the interests of the non-free/non-democratic world. If the spinless Europeans weren't, eh, spineless, then they would be working with the US here. " Why? What are the interest of the free world? "Every decent person and country should be standing with other countries that support democracy and freedom." Netanyahu has some problems with the constitutional court in Israel + corruption allegations. If he succeeds, Israel might become authoritarian and though there is a growing antisemitism some Israel consider leaving Israel because of him.

YZF 8mo ago
As we used to say when we were kids, if your grandmother had wheels she would be a bus. Yes, Israel's democracy is under threat, very much fueled by those same external forces impact other western countries, social media and such. The interest of the free world. In my opinion. Is to promote freedom and not give power to countries that are not free or democratic (which is most of the world). The UN primarily represents the non-free forces and its institutions similarly the same. https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/523711/Iran-elected-as-vice-chair-of-UN-Commission-for-Social-Development https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/523711/Iran-elected-as-vice... We need to fight for democracy in Israel and the US just the same way we fight for it everywhere.
- elzbardico 8mo ago
  Israel is a ethno-state and an apartheid regime. Don’t call this a Democracy, please.
  - YZF 8mo ago
    It is a democracy within its legal internationally recognized borders. There is no apartheid in Israel. It's no more "ethno-state" than let's say Japan or Switzerland, in fact it is a lot more ethnically diverse with 2 million Arab citizens. There is the problem of the occupied territories (which Israel's law considers occupied in alignment with international practices) where people in limbo due to the unresolved status. That's not apartheid (despite Israeli citizens being treated differently in those territories). Maybe legally and morally questionable but how we got here and why we can't fix this is also relevant.
  - csmpltn 8mo ago
    [flagged]
  - reliabilityguy 8mo ago
    > Israel is a ethno-state and an apartheid regime. Don’t call this a Democracy, please. Ireland and Poland (as well as many other countries) are ethno-states too. Did they stop being democracies? Last I checked, the vote of israeli non-Jews counted the same way as the israeli Jewish one. How can Israel be an apartheid state if Arabs in Israel routinely take highest positions in both public and private sector? It makes zero sense.

llm_nerd 8mo ago

"He has not been convicted of any war crimes." There is an arrest warrant out for him. He hasn't been convicted, but he should show up at that Hague and defend himself. When literally EVERY SINGLE DEVELOPED COUNTRY but the US and Israel is a member of the ICC, and those two happen to be largely the biggest perpetrators of war crimes, this "political theatre" act falls a bit flat. Oh look, the US is committing terrorism and blowing up random boats again, even double tapping as yet another war crimin' activity. Howler. What a bastion of goodness. Yeah, positively no one cares what that terroristic plutocracy thinks is right or wrong. "It is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US" LOL, no it absolutely is not. The fact that Israel-apologists have to do this bit is pathetic business. It's intellectual garbage, immediately dismissible as a distraction. The US relationship with Israel makes literally zero sense. Israel offers absolutely nothing to the US but geopolitical problems. Nothing. The US constantly burns actually valuable relationships in the service of that nuclear-armed international pariah. Congresspeople will literally, directly say Israel first. One member proudly wore his Israeli military uniform in the House. Just bizarre, unfathomable behaviour time and time again, and if anyone showed that sort of bizarre loyalty to any other country they would be rightly declared a foreign asset and a traitor. Oh look, congress gave Netanyahu a four minute standing ovation, apparently for his largess of trying to drag the US into wars and demanding US taxpayer dollars. What a great guy. Bizarre stuff. As to democracies...are we pretending the US is a democracy, or that it has rules and laws? I suspect the midterms are going to disabuse you of that foolish notion.

YZF 8mo ago
> It's intellectual garbage, immediately dismissible as a distraction. Absolutely false. This is standard antisemitic MO. The "Jews" control the media, the "Jews" control the US, The "Jews" control money. This is yet another permutation of the age old antisemitism just s/jews/zionists/ and s/jews/israel/ it's used by the same people and with the same intent belief. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. The intellectual garbage is coming from people who claim this is not antisemitic. US relationship with Israel makes perfect sense. It started during the cold war when Israel was aligned with the US against the Arab countries aligned with the USSR. The US gets to test its weapons systems and benefit from Israel defense technology know-how. Post 9/11 and with the rise of organizations like ISIS it also benefited the US greatly to have a partner in this unstable region called the middle east. I'm not aware of any US congress member that has declared their allegiance to Israel trumps their being American. But hey, any single member of any parliament can always be off the rails and the US has no shortage of those. But give me a specific example? What is understandable is that Americans consider Israel and Israelis their friends and allies and at challenging times friends support their friends and not stab them in the back like some have done.

unethical_ban 8mo ago

> is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US. Sure. Ignore AIPAC. Sure, build a false dichotomy that we either support Israel unconditionally or we hate Jews and support every antidemocratic nation in the eastern hemisphere. Sure, further propagate antisemitism by intentionally conflating any criticism of Israel the government with the religion of Judaism. I can be critical of Qatar and Saudia Arabia and China and Russia and Israel, for all the necessary reasons.

YZF 8mo ago
[flagged]
- unethical_ban 8mo ago
  AIPAC and CAIR do not have the same influence over US policy or politicians. Come on.
  - YZF 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - llm_nerd 8mo ago
      Ah, now it's actually jealousy. Just moments ago you called making such an observation antisemitism. Hilarious stuff.
      - YZF 8mo ago
        If you were Jewish you would not find this so funny. Yes, antisemitism is partly fueled by jealousy. The observation above that "Jews have a hold on the US" is antisemitism. Saying Jews are very successful because they work hard and they get stuff done despite all the hate is not antisemitism.
elzbardico 8mo ago
I think the Cuban exiled community in Florida have too much of a hold on US politics as they leverage their local power a lot given FL is a swing state. Weirdly, making this kind of criticism never warranted me a label of anti-Hispanic or anti-Cuban.

b00ty4breakfast 8mo ago

You're correct in that Israel doesn't have a hold over the US (it would be silly to assume that a pissant country could have the resources to control the [at time of writing] most prominent country in world), but they are a US client-state and thus receive preferential treatment when it suits US foreign-policy in the Middle East.

YZF 8mo ago
I can agree with this statement. If anything Israel does whatever the US tells it to do and is completely dependent on US support. client-state sounds like a reasonable description of the current reality.
direwolf20 8mo ago
It could be either way around, really. On the one hand, Israel has no military force apart from what the US gives it. On the other hand, Israel has the Epstein tapes (not the files) so it might be rational for a majority of US politicians to just do whatever it asks for.

elzbardico 8mo ago

Tl;Dr version: Israeli Propaganda version of the facts.

reliabilityguy 8mo ago
Instead of saying that something is propaganda, you can disprove factually incorrect points with evidence. NH is not reddit or twitter.