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Universal human rights is a very widespread belief and concept, extending to all continents and many, many cultures. It's not hard to understand why.
by mmooss 9mo ago
Universal human rights is a very widespread belief and concept, extending to all continents and many, many cultures. It's not hard to understand why.
- logicchains 9mo agoNo it's not. There are no human rights for the lowest castes in Hinduism, there are no human rights for polytheists in Islam, there were nothing like the modern idea of human rights in Japan or China before they westernized. That's why the west was able to leapfrog other nations economically (and hence militarily), because it was the first place where people had enough rights for something resembling a modern economy to develop.
- whattheheckheck 9mo agoIf you don't give someone a reason to live they ain't gonna slave away very hard for you
- wredcoll 9mo agoI mean, nobody knows why "the west" (whatever that is) leapfrogged anyone, and this is a fairly small period in terms of total human history.
- kortilla 9mo agoThe industrial revolution is quite well documented
- wredcoll 9mo agoThings people did, sure, but not why they did them here and not there is a bit trickier. There's a variety of theories, easy access to coal is my favorite, but some people like to blame the magna carta or something.
- Der_Einzige 9mo agoJared diamonds an idiot and “guns germs and steel” is among the worst books written in human history - right up there with Republic and whatever the hell sam Harris is doing.
- wredcoll 9mo agoI hope I wasn't coming off as quoting/endorsing that book, but easy access to a major fuel source has got to be at least somewhat relevant
- kortilla 9mo agoCheck out Destiny Disrupted. It covers how the Middle East and China both had technology opportunities much earlier but were missing the right economic incentives at the time to handle the disruption to the labor force that came with the Industrial Revolution. Essentially the major societies before ended up in local maximums because they didn’t have the ruthlessness of capitalism or the economic desperation to adopt technologies that in the short term would unemploy large portions of society and wipe out old power structures.
- 3form 9mo agoAnd any leapfrogging done there hardly has anything to do with human rights I guess, so I'd say the poster above has a really bold claim here
- mmooss 9mo agoIt's not an unusual claim: Freedom breeds innovation - people are not only free to think for themselves, to ignore the orthodoxy and established power, but they are raised and encouraged to do it and admired for it (to a degree). I think it's accurate to say that all the wealthiest (per capita) economies in history - i.e., the wealthiest economies over the last ten years - are in free societies.
- mmooss 9mo ago> That's why the west was able to leapfrog other nations economically I tend to agree, though it's of course hard to prove. However, I'm talking about the present, not the past. > There are no human rights for the lowest castes in Hinduism I said it is "very widespread", not everywhere. Perhaps the confusion is the word Universal: that doesn't mean everyone believes it (false for any belief), but that everyone has the rights, whether or not they know or can exercise them. It's the concept that starts the Declaration of Independence: All are created equal, and all have inalienable rights. > there were nothing like the modern idea of human rights in Japan or China before they westernized I am talking about the present, where it's adopted in East Asia (including in China - Taiwan, Hong Kong (though suppressed now), June 4 on the mainland), throughout Latin America, Europe of course, parts of Africa, the Anglo world, etc. > there are no human rights for polytheists in Islam, There is no country called 'Islam'; if we go by scripture, nobody has human rights. The idea that all practicioners of Islam have the same beliefs is as true as saying all practicioners of Christianity do - and look at HN. In Indonesia, the largest majority Muslim country, there are human rights, also in India, with the largest Muslim population (but not the majority). I think Pakistan and some South Asian countries probably have them enshrined.
- yencabulator 9mo agoAnd there were no human rights for the slaves of the Western nations.
- synecdoche 9mo agoAs opposed to slaves in non-western nations? May I remind that slavery was not exclusively a western thing, and that there are more slaves today than there ever was, in absolute terms, almost none in western nations.
- yencabulator 9mo agoThe parent comment was making it seem like the West is some kind of beacon of virtue.
- zelphirkalt 9mo agoSo not just to the west?
- wredcoll 9mo agoIf you'd said "isn't just a western thing" I would have definitely agreed, but this claim seems a bit unlikely.
- mmooss 9mo agoJust look around the world; they are the norm: East Asia (Japan, South Korea, China - Taiwan, Hong Kong, June 4 on the mainland); North America; South America, almost all of the region; Europe; Australia, NZ, Indonesia, the Phillipines; South Asia (India, and I think they are enshrined if not enforced in Pakistan and some others). What's mostly missing is the Middle East, Central Asia, parts of SE Asia, and large parts of Africa - though there are Benin, Botswana, Kenya, and many others iirc.
- pjc50 9mo agoYes, but: crucially, not in the USA. The EU human rights framework includes non-citizens, because they are still humans. The US constitutional rights framework does not include non-citizens, which is why ICE have free rein to abuse them.