5 ms·

This seems like solving the problem at the wrong layer? The issue isn’t the actual network connection between people, it is the content. You could easily create

This seems like solving the problem at the wrong layer? The issue isn’t the actual network connection between people, it is the content. You could easily create your own forum or something and only include people you trust. You don’t need an entirely separate internet.

willturman 8mo ago
Perhaps, but it also, by default, excludes that entire class of authentication problems that are only manifested in a non-local network. I love the idea. It's also interesting in that a local mesh doesn't necessarily need to operate using the TCP/IP/HTTP stack that has been compromised at every layer by advertising and privacy intrusions.
- kolinko 8mo ago
  You’re probably getting downvoted because what you said about TCP/IP/HTTP doesn’t make sense.
  - willturman 8mo ago
    You're right. I didn't think that through. The stack doesn't imply that a local network is somehow exposed to those concerns.
sky2224 8mo ago
There's only so much you can do to detect and block content that's AI generated. At the end of the day, the content starts with the people creating it. Jumping to an invite only network isn't the most ridiculous idea imo.
- kolinko 8mo ago
  What parent means is that you can with no problem build over the classic tcp/ip.
- drysart 8mo ago
  The best solution for dealing with AI content slop flooding your eyeballs is to hang out in places small enough to be a community -- like a local area mesh network. AI slop thrives in anonymity. In a community that's developed its own established norms and people who know each other, AI content trying to be passed off as genuine stands out like a sore thumb and is easily eradicated before it gets a chance to take root. It doesn't have to be invite-only, per se, but it needs to have its own flavor that newcomers can adapt to, and AI slop doesn't.
  - LexiMax 8mo ago
    You can still find the essence of community on the traditional internet in places like invite-only discords, smaller mastodon instances, traditional forums, and spaces similar to Lobsters and Tildes. ...and not on Hacker News. Too many pseudo-anonymous jerks, too many throwaways, too much faith placed in gamified moderation tools.
    - lazide 8mo ago
      Potentially, but those areas are also more and more getting leveraged to further identify and profile people for targeting - see the latest Discord scandal for example.
EvanAnderson 8mo ago
Even if it was a "network connection" issue creating an overlay network on top of the Internet (with VPN tunnels and mesh routing, for example) would yield wildly better bandwidth and latency characteristics. You can still make that overlay network geofenced and vetted. Heck, running it over a local ISP's last mile would probably yield wonderful latency. We need vetted webrings on the existing Internet, not a new Internet.
- wizardforhire 8mo ago
  Reading this back and forth so far I think you’re spot on… which leads to this open question, wheres the consolidated stack that makes this accessible? Also I think the name vetted webrings or just the vetted web is simple enough to be a movement. As in the vetted web movement. … gotta start somewhere.
- bigfatkitten 8mo ago
  But it’s a whole lot less fun and educational than building your own infrastructure. Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination.
- plastic-enjoyer 8mo ago
  > We need vetted webrings on the existing Internet, not a new Internet. How do you think will this work, when LLM accelerates the breakdown of trust and common epistemics?
noosphr 8mo ago
>The issue isn’t the actual network connection between people, it is the content. Everyone serving a website is being ddos by AI agents right now. A local mesh network is one way to make sure that no one with a terabit network can index you.
- pphysch 8mo ago
  Then firewall traffic that doesn't come from your local ISP blocks or authenticated users.
- lowtidebridge 8mo ago
  You could set up two way TLS with client certificates
  - mycall 8mo ago
    That isn't good enough and could be DDoS'd as well.
    - _yclj 8mo ago
      [dead]
    - direwolf20 8mo ago
      There's a dead comment here saying that OpenAI doesn't just DDoS the internet because it can. That's true. Any supposed DDoS is a side effect or incompetent scraping, and won't affect anything they can't scrape. Not sure why it's dead — it's important to realise this. Edit: oh, it's probably dead because of the username
- 1over137 8mo ago
  Could you just geoblock the USA? Is most/all AI agent scraping from there?
  - kyleee 8mo ago
    No
bossyTeacher 8mo ago
> This seems like solving the problem at the wrong layer? The issue isn’t the actual network connection between people, it is the content. Classic HN. Focus on the tech to avoid looking at the problem.
afpx 8mo ago
I'd like a semi-anonymous private network. Something like: I go to local post office and purchase a sealed token. I use the token to generate a reusable “verified human credential” with limited reuses. The credential allows me to connect to the private network.
- plagiarist 8mo ago
  I learned about a cryptographic interaction that can support that recently (and have spent a lot of time focusing on the idea as a means of procrastination). I don't use Kagi but the context was their Privacy Pass thingie https://blog.kagi.com/kagi-privacy-pass https://blog.kagi.com/kagi-privacy-pass It works similarly to what you'd like: they sign sealed tokens you provide. Later, you can unseal a token and use it without invalidating the signature. It is mathematically too difficult for a classical computer to link the sealed and unsealed token.
- jackvalentine 8mo ago
  You’re going to end up running down the same merry path that DRM companies do - and you can’t patch the wetware layer. Inevitably thousands of ‘human tokens’ will end up in the hands of actual humans working in call centres with 300 phones in front of them. https://www.scmp.com/news/people-culture/trending-china/article/3260129/china-scammer-uses-4600-phones-fake-live-stream-views-and-traffic-earns-us415000-4-months https://www.scmp.com/news/people-culture/trending-china/arti...
Bender 8mo ago
This is technically correct but there is no harm in them setting up a mesh in the event that the internet goes down assuming they have their own backup power. The USA and EU are both extremely vulnerable to power grid overload, cyber-attack, physical attack choke-points leading to black-starts, EMP, GRB and much more. I think it's good on them for the learning exercise and hopefully they add to existing documentation.
- cortesoft 8mo ago
  If the power grid overloads, I am not sure that your mesh network will survive either?
  - WD-42 8mo ago
    It runs off solar.
HumblyTossed 8mo ago
What happens when Comcast is told to cut off access to "blue" cities / states?

willturman 8mo ago

Perhaps, but it also, by default, excludes that entire class of authentication problems that are only manifested in a non-local network. I love the idea. It's also interesting in that a local mesh doesn't necessarily need to operate using the TCP/IP/HTTP stack that has been compromised at every layer by advertising and privacy intrusions.

kolinko 8mo ago
You’re probably getting downvoted because what you said about TCP/IP/HTTP doesn’t make sense.
- willturman 8mo ago
  You're right. I didn't think that through. The stack doesn't imply that a local network is somehow exposed to those concerns.

sky2224 8mo ago

There's only so much you can do to detect and block content that's AI generated. At the end of the day, the content starts with the people creating it. Jumping to an invite only network isn't the most ridiculous idea imo.

kolinko 8mo ago
What parent means is that you can with no problem build over the classic tcp/ip.
drysart 8mo ago
The best solution for dealing with AI content slop flooding your eyeballs is to hang out in places small enough to be a community -- like a local area mesh network. AI slop thrives in anonymity. In a community that's developed its own established norms and people who know each other, AI content trying to be passed off as genuine stands out like a sore thumb and is easily eradicated before it gets a chance to take root. It doesn't have to be invite-only, per se, but it needs to have its own flavor that newcomers can adapt to, and AI slop doesn't.
- LexiMax 8mo ago
  You can still find the essence of community on the traditional internet in places like invite-only discords, smaller mastodon instances, traditional forums, and spaces similar to Lobsters and Tildes. ...and not on Hacker News. Too many pseudo-anonymous jerks, too many throwaways, too much faith placed in gamified moderation tools.
  - lazide 8mo ago
    Potentially, but those areas are also more and more getting leveraged to further identify and profile people for targeting - see the latest Discord scandal for example.

EvanAnderson 8mo ago

Even if it was a "network connection" issue creating an overlay network on top of the Internet (with VPN tunnels and mesh routing, for example) would yield wildly better bandwidth and latency characteristics. You can still make that overlay network geofenced and vetted. Heck, running it over a local ISP's last mile would probably yield wonderful latency. We need vetted webrings on the existing Internet, not a new Internet.

wizardforhire 8mo ago
Reading this back and forth so far I think you’re spot on… which leads to this open question, wheres the consolidated stack that makes this accessible? Also I think the name vetted webrings or just the vetted web is simple enough to be a movement. As in the vetted web movement. … gotta start somewhere.
bigfatkitten 8mo ago
But it’s a whole lot less fun and educational than building your own infrastructure. Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination.
plastic-enjoyer 8mo ago
> We need vetted webrings on the existing Internet, not a new Internet. How do you think will this work, when LLM accelerates the breakdown of trust and common epistemics?

noosphr 8mo ago

>The issue isn’t the actual network connection between people, it is the content. Everyone serving a website is being ddos by AI agents right now. A local mesh network is one way to make sure that no one with a terabit network can index you.

pphysch 8mo ago
Then firewall traffic that doesn't come from your local ISP blocks or authenticated users.
lowtidebridge 8mo ago
You could set up two way TLS with client certificates
- mycall 8mo ago
  That isn't good enough and could be DDoS'd as well.
  - _yclj 8mo ago
    [dead]
  - direwolf20 8mo ago
    There's a dead comment here saying that OpenAI doesn't just DDoS the internet because it can. That's true. Any supposed DDoS is a side effect or incompetent scraping, and won't affect anything they can't scrape. Not sure why it's dead — it's important to realise this. Edit: oh, it's probably dead because of the username
1over137 8mo ago
Could you just geoblock the USA? Is most/all AI agent scraping from there?
- kyleee 8mo ago
  No

bossyTeacher 8mo ago

> This seems like solving the problem at the wrong layer? The issue isn’t the actual network connection between people, it is the content. Classic HN. Focus on the tech to avoid looking at the problem.

afpx 8mo ago

I'd like a semi-anonymous private network. Something like: I go to local post office and purchase a sealed token. I use the token to generate a reusable “verified human credential” with limited reuses. The credential allows me to connect to the private network.

plagiarist 8mo ago
I learned about a cryptographic interaction that can support that recently (and have spent a lot of time focusing on the idea as a means of procrastination). I don't use Kagi but the context was their Privacy Pass thingie https://blog.kagi.com/kagi-privacy-pass https://blog.kagi.com/kagi-privacy-pass It works similarly to what you'd like: they sign sealed tokens you provide. Later, you can unseal a token and use it without invalidating the signature. It is mathematically too difficult for a classical computer to link the sealed and unsealed token.
jackvalentine 8mo ago
You’re going to end up running down the same merry path that DRM companies do - and you can’t patch the wetware layer. Inevitably thousands of ‘human tokens’ will end up in the hands of actual humans working in call centres with 300 phones in front of them. https://www.scmp.com/news/people-culture/trending-china/article/3260129/china-scammer-uses-4600-phones-fake-live-stream-views-and-traffic-earns-us415000-4-months https://www.scmp.com/news/people-culture/trending-china/arti...

Bender 8mo ago

This is technically correct but there is no harm in them setting up a mesh in the event that the internet goes down assuming they have their own backup power. The USA and EU are both extremely vulnerable to power grid overload, cyber-attack, physical attack choke-points leading to black-starts, EMP, GRB and much more. I think it's good on them for the learning exercise and hopefully they add to existing documentation.

cortesoft 8mo ago
If the power grid overloads, I am not sure that your mesh network will survive either?
- WD-42 8mo ago
  It runs off solar.

HumblyTossed 8mo ago

What happens when Comcast is told to cut off access to "blue" cities / states?