3 ms·

Nth-ing the ROS thing. That garbage needs to gracefully back itself into a pool of lava.

rck 9mo ago
The thing that most people don't appreciate is that ROS was co-designed with the PR2, which had a very idiosyncratic architecture: two separate computers in the base, ethercat for comms, not at all modular, and very high end parts (for 2010ish). Most of the weirdness of ROS looks less weird in light of the design of the PR2, and most of the evolution of ROS was to get away from the PR2 model for more general platforms. If you were in robotics prior to 2010, you probably would have used something called Player/Stage (by some of the same people who developed ROS). Believe it or not, another big motivation for ROS was solving the (many) problems that popped up as people tried to get Player/Stage running with robots like the Pioneer 3-DX.
- Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
  ROS is dozens of projects crammed into a single workspace. Avoiding this ecosystem will not work in your favor in the long term. * robotic software projects are often abandoned, and only ROS keeps the driver packages working * Yes it is terrible, but the alternatives are even worse Almost all modern reasonably good platforms will already offer a tested ROS configuration. Even the UR5 had simulation and control options out of the box. People can't avoid standards.. even the awful ones.. =3
  - rck 9mo ago
    Yeah, for professional robotics you just accept that this is the world we live in. But for learning and hobbyist stuff, it's better to play with simple hardware and build the things that ROS is ultimately abstracting over before you try to pick up ROS. I've seen people get sucked into ROS + simulation who end up never touching real robots. Which is fine if that's what you want to play with, but it's debatable if "ROS + sim" alone is even "robotics."
    - Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
      I usually recommend building the Arduino turtle-bot first, try the maze solver with the classic wavefront algorithm, and then a ROS Arduino setup tutorial. Also not a fan of simulators for simple platforms, as a lot of stuff breaks when the environment is chaotic. =3
Xmd5a 9mo ago
I'd enjoy if someone could elaborate, in the style of Erik Naggum ideally.
- irishcoffee 9mo ago
  I was at a ROS conference a few years ago. A presenter went up and gave a talk about lidar and point clouds, speaking about how obsolete optical cameras were now that lidar was readily available. The next person gets up and gives a talk about all the advancements in generating point clouds from optical cameras. By far the best part is how tied to specific versions of Ubuntu each ROS release is, just getting all the packages installed and running requires sacrificing a cat while chanting Hail Mary backwards in Latin.
  - leetrout 9mo ago
    IMO the worst part about canonical having a tight grip on it. Reinventing the build chain every other year is miserable too.
  - Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
    Cameras have all the same problems of lidar, and none of the advantages. Show a lidar a 45' mirror/weather-glass to test what your $60k bought. Monocular feature extraction has been around for decades, but is only reliable for people that never go outside in the sun/dust/rain. =3
    - irishcoffee 9mo ago
      The point was how fragmented the "community" has become. Also, the talk about visual camera point could generation was very impressive. Lidar also suffers from the environment, and angles, and reflection, and light sources.
      - Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
        In general, lidar is used to remove the ambiguity in a local ground scan, and cameras extrapolate overlapping texture gradients to guess distant surface structure ( documented in the old book https://www.amazon.com/Learning-OpenCV-Computer-Vision-Library/dp/0596516134 https://www.amazon.com/Learning-OpenCV-Computer-Vision-Libra... .) There are some fairly good FOSS tools around like COLMAP, if you want to learn why automatic monocular pose recovery and SfM is hard. Real autonomous robotics is hard, and people make the same predictable mistakes every 4 years. Retrofitting a consumer Yarbo would be cool though. =3

rck 9mo ago

The thing that most people don't appreciate is that ROS was co-designed with the PR2, which had a very idiosyncratic architecture: two separate computers in the base, ethercat for comms, not at all modular, and very high end parts (for 2010ish). Most of the weirdness of ROS looks less weird in light of the design of the PR2, and most of the evolution of ROS was to get away from the PR2 model for more general platforms. If you were in robotics prior to 2010, you probably would have used something called Player/Stage (by some of the same people who developed ROS). Believe it or not, another big motivation for ROS was solving the (many) problems that popped up as people tried to get Player/Stage running with robots like the Pioneer 3-DX.

Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
ROS is dozens of projects crammed into a single workspace. Avoiding this ecosystem will not work in your favor in the long term. * robotic software projects are often abandoned, and only ROS keeps the driver packages working * Yes it is terrible, but the alternatives are even worse Almost all modern reasonably good platforms will already offer a tested ROS configuration. Even the UR5 had simulation and control options out of the box. People can't avoid standards.. even the awful ones.. =3
- rck 9mo ago
  Yeah, for professional robotics you just accept that this is the world we live in. But for learning and hobbyist stuff, it's better to play with simple hardware and build the things that ROS is ultimately abstracting over before you try to pick up ROS. I've seen people get sucked into ROS + simulation who end up never touching real robots. Which is fine if that's what you want to play with, but it's debatable if "ROS + sim" alone is even "robotics."
  - Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
    I usually recommend building the Arduino turtle-bot first, try the maze solver with the classic wavefront algorithm, and then a ROS Arduino setup tutorial. Also not a fan of simulators for simple platforms, as a lot of stuff breaks when the environment is chaotic. =3

Xmd5a 9mo ago

I'd enjoy if someone could elaborate, in the style of Erik Naggum ideally.

irishcoffee 9mo ago
I was at a ROS conference a few years ago. A presenter went up and gave a talk about lidar and point clouds, speaking about how obsolete optical cameras were now that lidar was readily available. The next person gets up and gives a talk about all the advancements in generating point clouds from optical cameras. By far the best part is how tied to specific versions of Ubuntu each ROS release is, just getting all the packages installed and running requires sacrificing a cat while chanting Hail Mary backwards in Latin.
- leetrout 9mo ago
  IMO the worst part about canonical having a tight grip on it. Reinventing the build chain every other year is miserable too.
- Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
  Cameras have all the same problems of lidar, and none of the advantages. Show a lidar a 45' mirror/weather-glass to test what your $60k bought. Monocular feature extraction has been around for decades, but is only reliable for people that never go outside in the sun/dust/rain. =3
  - irishcoffee 9mo ago
    The point was how fragmented the "community" has become. Also, the talk about visual camera point could generation was very impressive. Lidar also suffers from the environment, and angles, and reflection, and light sources.
    - Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
      In general, lidar is used to remove the ambiguity in a local ground scan, and cameras extrapolate overlapping texture gradients to guess distant surface structure ( documented in the old book https://www.amazon.com/Learning-OpenCV-Computer-Vision-Library/dp/0596516134 https://www.amazon.com/Learning-OpenCV-Computer-Vision-Libra... .) There are some fairly good FOSS tools around like COLMAP, if you want to learn why automatic monocular pose recovery and SfM is hard. Real autonomous robotics is hard, and people make the same predictable mistakes every 4 years. Retrofitting a consumer Yarbo would be cool though. =3