7 ms·

It certainly indicates that Go is the language you should probably be using on AppEngine, given that you pay for resource (CPU, memory, etc) usage, and Google t

by EwanToo 14y ago

It certainly indicates that Go is the language you should probably be using on AppEngine, given that you pay for resource (CPU, memory, etc) usage, and Google themselves are optimising Go to minimise that same usage for their own systems.

StavrosK 14y ago
I tried that just today, but the most (only?) decent web framework for Go, Revel, doesn't work on GAE yet. Also, as I was looking, it became painfully obvious that I would be missing the entire Django ecosystem if I went with Go. I'll try again with something I don't intend to turn into a business. Writing various daemons, tools and helpers in Go has been great, though.
- jzelinskie 14y ago
  Maybe in some time more people who want a large web framework will be using Go, but right now the reason you don't see traction in that area is because there isn't a desire. I think if you squint your eyes while using the standard library's http templating and http libraries along with some popular libs like Gorilla's sessions and cookies, you'll swear you're using a framework. Of course, this isn't going to give you the same re-usability you get from a framework that's as compartmental as Django.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    That's the impression I got from the IRC channel too. The equivalent of a microframework is definitely in the standard library, but big frameworks like Django just save you so much time...
- _ak 14y ago
  So, what exactly is it that you're missing from net/http and Gorilla?
  - grey-area 14y ago
    What's missing in Go/Gorilla for web dev? Well, it covers: Serving (great built-in server for net/http) Routing Sessions Context -- It's missing: Authorisation Authentication Parameter Validation/Checking Asset management Migrations Cleaner templating (I prefer mustache to the built-in go templates) HTML Helpers/View Helpers Form Helpers ORM or other persistence helpers (controversial I know) Possibly scaffolding would be nice too and a suggested project structure to encourage sharing -- So there are a few things which you'd generally expect in a web framework which aren't there yet. Of course some of the above list is subject to debate, some is available in revel, some it not everyone would agree is even necessary, but most other platforms in other languages have a bit more to help you, even if they are minimalist. Even just having an agreed-upon set of conventions and structure for web projects (a la rails), speeds up comprehension when looking at any large code-base. I'm quite confident Go will get there, and having tried it out am really impressed with the language and the culture, but it would be disingenuous to suggest it has everything you'd need to produce large web apps currently - at present you have to write your own code for quite a lot of the above.
    - StavrosK 14y ago
      The Django admin interface is indispensable, too. Plus, you have all the pluggable apps for everything you might need.
      - grey-area 14y ago
        I do think this is both a strength and a weakness. Admin interfaces and plugins/apps are great to get you up and running fast (this is similar to the scaffolding point above), but they are also the part of any ecosystem which introduces subtle bugs and dependencies. By the time you get to crud admin and plugins, you're at the point where the benefits of the framework start to come with significant additional costs (in maintenance, flexibility, comprehension etc). A pre-built app or plugin gets you up and running quickly but when you start to modify it you really need to understand the entire app/plugin before you can do so efficiently. Often people feel this is as significant a roadblock as simply writing it from scratch in the first place. Any complex webapp is probably going to outgrow standard admin/scaffolding, and any complex usage is going to require modifications of things like plugins and gems, so while they're nice to have in an ecosystem I don't see them as essential. This is an area where django has more built-in that say rails though, and it'd be interesting to see a Golang framework trying to take the best ideas from all these other popular frameworks.

by EwanToo 14y ago

StavrosK 14y ago

I tried that just today, but the most (only?) decent web framework for Go, Revel, doesn't work on GAE yet. Also, as I was looking, it became painfully obvious that I would be missing the entire Django ecosystem if I went with Go. I'll try again with something I don't intend to turn into a business. Writing various daemons, tools and helpers in Go has been great, though.

jzelinskie 14y ago
Maybe in some time more people who want a large web framework will be using Go, but right now the reason you don't see traction in that area is because there isn't a desire. I think if you squint your eyes while using the standard library's http templating and http libraries along with some popular libs like Gorilla's sessions and cookies, you'll swear you're using a framework. Of course, this isn't going to give you the same re-usability you get from a framework that's as compartmental as Django.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  That's the impression I got from the IRC channel too. The equivalent of a microframework is definitely in the standard library, but big frameworks like Django just save you so much time...
_ak 14y ago
So, what exactly is it that you're missing from net/http and Gorilla?
- grey-area 14y ago
  What's missing in Go/Gorilla for web dev? Well, it covers: Serving (great built-in server for net/http) Routing Sessions Context -- It's missing: Authorisation Authentication Parameter Validation/Checking Asset management Migrations Cleaner templating (I prefer mustache to the built-in go templates) HTML Helpers/View Helpers Form Helpers ORM or other persistence helpers (controversial I know) Possibly scaffolding would be nice too and a suggested project structure to encourage sharing -- So there are a few things which you'd generally expect in a web framework which aren't there yet. Of course some of the above list is subject to debate, some is available in revel, some it not everyone would agree is even necessary, but most other platforms in other languages have a bit more to help you, even if they are minimalist. Even just having an agreed-upon set of conventions and structure for web projects (a la rails), speeds up comprehension when looking at any large code-base. I'm quite confident Go will get there, and having tried it out am really impressed with the language and the culture, but it would be disingenuous to suggest it has everything you'd need to produce large web apps currently - at present you have to write your own code for quite a lot of the above.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    The Django admin interface is indispensable, too. Plus, you have all the pluggable apps for everything you might need.
    - grey-area 14y ago
      I do think this is both a strength and a weakness. Admin interfaces and plugins/apps are great to get you up and running fast (this is similar to the scaffolding point above), but they are also the part of any ecosystem which introduces subtle bugs and dependencies. By the time you get to crud admin and plugins, you're at the point where the benefits of the framework start to come with significant additional costs (in maintenance, flexibility, comprehension etc). A pre-built app or plugin gets you up and running quickly but when you start to modify it you really need to understand the entire app/plugin before you can do so efficiently. Often people feel this is as significant a roadblock as simply writing it from scratch in the first place. Any complex webapp is probably going to outgrow standard admin/scaffolding, and any complex usage is going to require modifications of things like plugins and gems, so while they're nice to have in an ecosystem I don't see them as essential. This is an area where django has more built-in that say rails though, and it'd be interesting to see a Golang framework trying to take the best ideas from all these other popular frameworks.