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> Unless there’s proof of incitement to violence or a true threat, such expression is protected. AFAIK the bar is even higher - incitement to violence is allow

> Unless there’s proof of incitement to violence or a true threat, such expression is protected. AFAIK the bar is even higher - incitement to violence is allowed, as long as it's not 'imminent': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action

HighGoldstein 8mo ago
The bar in the US right now seems to be if someone with any authority feels like killing you.
- RickJWagner 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - dctoedt 8mo ago
    > nobody has been killed that wasn’t carrying a gun with extra ammo or striking cops with their vehicle. The video evidence shows beyond peradventure that Renee Good didn't strike the ICE agent — who isn't a cop — with her vehicle. EDIT: See the NY Times's frame-by-frame, time-synchronized compilation of the various videos [0], especially starting at about 3:42 in that video [1]. The agent wasn't hit by Good's vehicle - starting at 4:53 of the video [2], he was standing well away from her vehicle (see 5:42 [3]), leaning on it with his hand on the front fender, and his feet slipped as she was trying to pull away. He wasn't hit or run over — at most he was slightly pushed by the vehicle. His reaction — "fucking bitch" [4]. As to Alex Pretti: You're focusing like a laser on a fact — if such it be — that's completely irrelevant. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9R9dAmws6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9R9dAmws6M And yes, I firmly believe the NY Times tries to get it right, and corrects their errors on the rare occasions that they make them. [1] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=hqGlX9J0Iwpveqwu&t=222 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=hqGlX9J0Iwpveqwu&t=222 [2] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=UKhDNxdXaCFhvdr0&t=293 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=UKhDNxdXaCFhvdr0&t=293 [3] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=7WNCsHcPm7b6ycJ-&t=334 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=7WNCsHcPm7b6ycJ-&t=334 [4] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=RiHOgMrJGxgqmq_8&t=389 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=RiHOgMrJGxgqmq_8&t=389
    - mindslight 8mo ago
      > The video evidence shows beyond peradventure that Renee Good didn't strike an ICE agent Let's not get caught up arguing about the play-by-play details. There will always be rabid disagreement regardless of merit, causing us to miss the crux of the matter. The important big-picture dynamic is that the agent set up the situation so he'd have an excuse to kill the next person who tried to drive away from him, directly contrary to ICE's own policies. That would be second degree murder, if the perp weren't a member of a protected class.
      - RickJWagner 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        HighGoldstein 8mo ago
        > Struck the ICE agent with her car One of the above comments gives a pretty clear cut showcase of how this is not, in fact, a fact. > I think they both contributed to the tragedy. "Between me and Jeff Bezos we are worth several hundred billion dollars". The ICE agent contributed the bullets that made this a tragedy, the victim contributed not following the orders of people who are not police officers, I'd say it's not much of a "both" situation. > Nobody protesting peacefully gets shot. At least one person already has, but something tells me you'll just move the goalpost of what "peacefully" means.
        RickJWagner 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        dctoedt 8mo ago
        > Vehicular assault protest is dangerous and illegal protest. You need to watch the video compilation linked to above. It wasn't anything resembling "vehicular assault protest" — it was a woman trying to verrrry slowwwwly drive away and an armed ICE agent shooting her when his feet slipped.
electrondood 8mo ago
> Advocacy of force or criminal activity does not receive First Amendment protections if (1) the advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action, and (2) is likely to incite or produce such action. You'd need to say something which directs others to violate the law or commit acts of violence, at a specific time ("imminent"), and your statement must be likely to be effective at causing them to do so. Protesting, encouraging others to protest, expressing your political beliefs, organizing a protest, etc. are not incitement to violence. Nor is "doxxing" (filming, identifying) a public employee. None of these activities satisfy those criteria. Remember the "Twitter files" nonsense? I recall they were upset at the government influencing the expression of political views on social media. Not hearing much backlash about this from the same people, because this is what they were claiming, but 100x worse.

HighGoldstein 8mo ago

The bar in the US right now seems to be if someone with any authority feels like killing you.

RickJWagner 8mo ago
[flagged]
- dctoedt 8mo ago
  > nobody has been killed that wasn’t carrying a gun with extra ammo or striking cops with their vehicle. The video evidence shows beyond peradventure that Renee Good didn't strike the ICE agent — who isn't a cop — with her vehicle. EDIT: See the NY Times's frame-by-frame, time-synchronized compilation of the various videos [0], especially starting at about 3:42 in that video [1]. The agent wasn't hit by Good's vehicle - starting at 4:53 of the video [2], he was standing well away from her vehicle (see 5:42 [3]), leaning on it with his hand on the front fender, and his feet slipped as she was trying to pull away. He wasn't hit or run over — at most he was slightly pushed by the vehicle. His reaction — "fucking bitch" [4]. As to Alex Pretti: You're focusing like a laser on a fact — if such it be — that's completely irrelevant. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9R9dAmws6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9R9dAmws6M And yes, I firmly believe the NY Times tries to get it right, and corrects their errors on the rare occasions that they make them. [1] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=hqGlX9J0Iwpveqwu&t=222 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=hqGlX9J0Iwpveqwu&t=222 [2] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=UKhDNxdXaCFhvdr0&t=293 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=UKhDNxdXaCFhvdr0&t=293 [3] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=7WNCsHcPm7b6ycJ-&t=334 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=7WNCsHcPm7b6ycJ-&t=334 [4] https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=RiHOgMrJGxgqmq_8&t=389 https://youtu.be/D9R9dAmws6M?si=RiHOgMrJGxgqmq_8&t=389
  - mindslight 8mo ago
    > The video evidence shows beyond peradventure that Renee Good didn't strike an ICE agent Let's not get caught up arguing about the play-by-play details. There will always be rabid disagreement regardless of merit, causing us to miss the crux of the matter. The important big-picture dynamic is that the agent set up the situation so he'd have an excuse to kill the next person who tried to drive away from him, directly contrary to ICE's own policies. That would be second degree murder, if the perp weren't a member of a protected class.
    - RickJWagner 8mo ago
      [flagged]
      - HighGoldstein 8mo ago
        > Struck the ICE agent with her car One of the above comments gives a pretty clear cut showcase of how this is not, in fact, a fact. > I think they both contributed to the tragedy. "Between me and Jeff Bezos we are worth several hundred billion dollars". The ICE agent contributed the bullets that made this a tragedy, the victim contributed not following the orders of people who are not police officers, I'd say it's not much of a "both" situation. > Nobody protesting peacefully gets shot. At least one person already has, but something tells me you'll just move the goalpost of what "peacefully" means.
        RickJWagner 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        dctoedt 8mo ago
        > Vehicular assault protest is dangerous and illegal protest. You need to watch the video compilation linked to above. It wasn't anything resembling "vehicular assault protest" — it was a woman trying to verrrry slowwwwly drive away and an armed ICE agent shooting her when his feet slipped.

electrondood 8mo ago

> Advocacy of force or criminal activity does not receive First Amendment protections if (1) the advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action, and (2) is likely to incite or produce such action. You'd need to say something which directs others to violate the law or commit acts of violence, at a specific time ("imminent"), and your statement must be likely to be effective at causing them to do so. Protesting, encouraging others to protest, expressing your political beliefs, organizing a protest, etc. are not incitement to violence. Nor is "doxxing" (filming, identifying) a public employee. None of these activities satisfy those criteria. Remember the "Twitter files" nonsense? I recall they were upset at the government influencing the expression of political views on social media. Not hearing much backlash about this from the same people, because this is what they were claiming, but 100x worse.