3 ms·

Why shouldnt they be allowed to make a cap at 10M?

by KellyCriterion 8mo ago

shafyy 8mo ago
Because it's very likely against the Swiss constitution
- KellyCriterion 8mo ago
  Please elaborate and send me the link to the relevant www.parlament.ch docs :)
  - outside1234 8mo ago
    Let’s pretend it’s within the constitution. How are they going to enforce this? For baby 10M+1 are they going to tell a Swiss woman that she can’t have a baby? In any case, this is definitely not conformant to the treaty that the Swiss have with the EU around rights of free movement.
    - retired 8mo ago
      You need impeccable timing if you want a baby. Make sure grandma falls down the stairs first otherwise the baby will be exiled to Liechtenstein.
    - Johnny555 8mo ago
      >For baby 10M+1 are they going to tell a Swiss woman that she can’t have a baby? This wouldn't happen because it's not actually a population control measure, it's an immigration control measure - when the population gets above 9.5M, Switzerland would start shutting down immigration/asylum. There's nothing in the initiative that would set controls on births by Swiss citizens. (and it would be unlikely to be needed since Switzerland is facing the same low birth rate of other western countries)
    - 9x39 8mo ago
      Pause working visas and citizenship applications? Organic population growth doesn’t have to be criminalized or authoritarian-controlled like China tried.
    - Youden 8mo ago
      The text of the initiative is here: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html It's primarily an attempt to control immigration. At 9.5M, the government has to start limiting the issuance of residence permits and start renegotiating international commitments that drive population growth. At 10M, the government has to terminate the free movement agreement with the EU. The right-leaning parties bring up something like this every few years. They always get shot down.
- Youden 8mo ago
  "Against the Swiss constitution" doesn't really make sense here. This is a popular initiative; if accepted, it amends the Swiss constitution. Here's the text: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html The only way you could argue an initiative is "against the Swiss constitution" in my opinion would be if it runs afoul of the rules: https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#tit_4/chap_2 https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#tit_4/chap_2 Unless you want to argue that this violates the mandatory provisions of international law, I don't think you have an argument. The text of the amendment specifically clarifies that any of the actions it mandates on parliament have to adhere to the mandatory provisions of international law, so I don't think that's an avenue you can pursue.
  - shafyy 8mo ago
    You are right, I forgot how xenophobic my native Switzerland is. Unlike e.g. Germany, they don't really have something in the constitution regarding helping immigrants. However, they do have Art. 7 (human dignity) and Art. 8 (equality before law), which applies not only to Swiss citizens, but to all humans. I don't know about you, but I would think that excluding refugees who need help because we already have 10M people in the country would be against their human dignity.
FranklinJabar 8mo ago
Switzerland is a state. Talking about what they're "allowed" to do is just meaningless. But, it does seem like a terrible place to live. I fear for the immigrants who form the basis of the economy.
- gpt5 8mo ago
  Switzerland is consistently rated among the best places to live in almost any metric.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - FranklinJabar 8mo ago
    Until you meet the people there anyway!
- toshinoriyagi 8mo ago
  I don't think immigrants make up the basis of the Swiss economy. Looking at their demographic data[1], it was pretty strongly European dominated for a very long time, and is still ~80% European. When people talk about immigrants in this context, I don't think they mean people from the US, but lower socioeconomic asylum-seekers and refugees etc. from the middle-east. It definitely seems their economy was built on European labor, which I believe the vast majority of European countries were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Permanent_residents_by_nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Pe...
  - Youden 8mo ago
    It depends somewhat on the specific campaign but generally in right-leaning Swiss politics, "immigrant" includes Europeans as well. I think that's definitely the case in this initiative since the text of the initiative requires ending freedom of movement with the EU. They really don't like asylum seekers either though. Several of their arguments reference asylum seekers specifically: https://nachhaltigkeitsinitiative.ch/argumente/ https://nachhaltigkeitsinitiative.ch/argumente/

Why shouldnt they be allowed to make a cap at 10M?

shafyy 8mo ago

Because it's very likely against the Swiss constitution

KellyCriterion 8mo ago
Please elaborate and send me the link to the relevant www.parlament.ch docs :)
- outside1234 8mo ago
  Let’s pretend it’s within the constitution. How are they going to enforce this? For baby 10M+1 are they going to tell a Swiss woman that she can’t have a baby? In any case, this is definitely not conformant to the treaty that the Swiss have with the EU around rights of free movement.
  - retired 8mo ago
    You need impeccable timing if you want a baby. Make sure grandma falls down the stairs first otherwise the baby will be exiled to Liechtenstein.
  - Johnny555 8mo ago
    >For baby 10M+1 are they going to tell a Swiss woman that she can’t have a baby? This wouldn't happen because it's not actually a population control measure, it's an immigration control measure - when the population gets above 9.5M, Switzerland would start shutting down immigration/asylum. There's nothing in the initiative that would set controls on births by Swiss citizens. (and it would be unlikely to be needed since Switzerland is facing the same low birth rate of other western countries)
  - 9x39 8mo ago
    Pause working visas and citizenship applications? Organic population growth doesn’t have to be criminalized or authoritarian-controlled like China tried.
  - Youden 8mo ago
    The text of the initiative is here: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html It's primarily an attempt to control immigration. At 9.5M, the government has to start limiting the issuance of residence permits and start renegotiating international commitments that drive population growth. At 10M, the government has to terminate the free movement agreement with the EU. The right-leaning parties bring up something like this every few years. They always get shot down.
Youden 8mo ago
"Against the Swiss constitution" doesn't really make sense here. This is a popular initiative; if accepted, it amends the Swiss constitution. Here's the text: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis555t.html The only way you could argue an initiative is "against the Swiss constitution" in my opinion would be if it runs afoul of the rules: https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#tit_4/chap_2 https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1999/404/en#tit_4/chap_2 Unless you want to argue that this violates the mandatory provisions of international law, I don't think you have an argument. The text of the amendment specifically clarifies that any of the actions it mandates on parliament have to adhere to the mandatory provisions of international law, so I don't think that's an avenue you can pursue.
- shafyy 8mo ago
  You are right, I forgot how xenophobic my native Switzerland is. Unlike e.g. Germany, they don't really have something in the constitution regarding helping immigrants. However, they do have Art. 7 (human dignity) and Art. 8 (equality before law), which applies not only to Swiss citizens, but to all humans. I don't know about you, but I would think that excluding refugees who need help because we already have 10M people in the country would be against their human dignity.

FranklinJabar 8mo ago

Switzerland is a state. Talking about what they're "allowed" to do is just meaningless. But, it does seem like a terrible place to live. I fear for the immigrants who form the basis of the economy.

gpt5 8mo ago
Switzerland is consistently rated among the best places to live in almost any metric.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- FranklinJabar 8mo ago
  Until you meet the people there anyway!
toshinoriyagi 8mo ago
I don't think immigrants make up the basis of the Swiss economy. Looking at their demographic data[1], it was pretty strongly European dominated for a very long time, and is still ~80% European. When people talk about immigrants in this context, I don't think they mean people from the US, but lower socioeconomic asylum-seekers and refugees etc. from the middle-east. It definitely seems their economy was built on European labor, which I believe the vast majority of European countries were. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Permanent_residents_by_nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland#Pe...
- Youden 8mo ago
  It depends somewhat on the specific campaign but generally in right-leaning Swiss politics, "immigrant" includes Europeans as well. I think that's definitely the case in this initiative since the text of the initiative requires ending freedom of movement with the EU. They really don't like asylum seekers either though. Several of their arguments reference asylum seekers specifically: https://nachhaltigkeitsinitiative.ch/argumente/ https://nachhaltigkeitsinitiative.ch/argumente/