5 ms·

> You have to break open the wall to fix things The best is to build in such a way as to not have to fix them in the first place. European standards mandate pa

by ragall 8mo ago

> You have to break open the wall to fix things The best is to build in such a way as to not have to fix them in the first place. European standards mandate passing all wiring through corrugated tubes. Builders add spare empty ones for future expansion, which makes it unnecessary to open the walls in most cases.

encom 8mo ago
>European standards mandate passing all wiring through corrugated tubes. Incorrect. It's usually done, because it's a good idea, but nobody says you have to.
- ragall 8mo ago
  Maybe in your country. In Italy it's illegal not to use appropriate corrugated tubes.
  - retired 8mo ago
    Bribery and tax fraud is also illegal in Italy but that didn't stop Berlusconi.
    - ragall 8mo ago
      [flagged]
- ProllyInfamous 8mo ago
  There are residential jurisdictions within USA that require metal conduit between jboxes (e.g. Chicagoland) — initially more expensive, but much easier to modify/update. Flexible plastic conduit doesn't seem to offer barely any more protection than a standard US NM sheathed cable. As an electrician of two decades, my commonest USA gripes are these: •) grounding wires should always have insulation, too (instead of just bare) •) modern NM isn't protected enough (neither physically nor chemically) •) jboxes should have better wire anchoring inside, and bigger in general •) oldwork cut-in jboxes aren't substantial enough even perfectly installed for long-term use (if you screw them to an adjacent stud they're great, but this is against code for grounding reasons).
  - ragall 8mo ago
    The main usefulness of plastic conduits is not protection, but being able to pass new wires without opening the walls.
lazide 8mo ago
Eh, people have a terrible time renovating or adding anything in housing in Europe. A lot of construction doesn’t have those tubes. It’s hard to articulate how wildly different habits are in Europe vs US around things like ‘what electrical appliances I have’ partially because of this. Housing tends to be a lot smaller too, largely due to population density differences, but also overall differences in economic earning power and ease of buying things.
- ragall 8mo ago
  It's not any different from having to renovate a 40's house in the US. You'll have to redo all the plumbing and electrical system to current code. Corrugated tubes have been common since the 90s and mandatory shortly thereafter.
  - lazide 8mo ago
    Most European housing is made of concrete, stone, or brick. It absolutely is different from typical US housing, because unless you want to run surface mount everything (which most people don’t in residential), it’s an insane amount of work to run new anything. ‘40’s homes in the US, you typically just tear down to the studs, re-run new stuff, and throw up new drywall. Boom, done. Unless you’re in a place that did block/brick etc like some of the big cities, then yeah it’s a nightmare there too.
    - ragall 8mo ago
      To properly redo an old house, you'll have to redo the siding and probably the roof too.
      - lazide 8mo ago
        Yes, if they weren’t redone separately. Each of them has their own lifecycles, so it’s rare they all get done at once. At that point, most people will just do a full teardown.
CalRobert 8mo ago
Having owned a couple European houses they’re horrible to alter and mediocre on energy. I miss nice adaptable wood structures. Bizarrely Europeans seem to think their cinderblock homes are nicer…
- Insanity 8mo ago
  I've never wanted to adapt a house that significantly. But yeah, I much prefer the cinderblock homes and miss them. Something about the wood and drywall houses just feels incredibly cheap, and I don't like the aesthetic (de gustibus et coloribus..) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Little_Pigs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Little_Pigs
  - CalRobert 8mo ago
    To each their own I guess. I’ll happily move walls, add or remove a bathroom, add windows, etc. Terrible carbon footprint for concrete too. I know modern structures are better but I also don’t entirely trust block in an earthquake. Obviously less of a concern in most (not all!) of Europe.
    - ragall 8mo ago
      > To each their own I guess. I’ll happily move walls, add or remove a bathroom, add windows, etc. A sign of the restlesness. Once you find a house to settle in, why would you need to change it ? European houses are typically versatile, US houses aren't due to having closets (which make a room's layout very inflexible) as well as electrical outlets being mandated exactly in the middle of the wall precisely where one would like to place furniture. US building codes are beyond stupid. > Terrible carbon footprint for concrete too. Carbon footprint is not that important. I want comfort. More specifically: if you are somewhat wealthy (in the top 10% of incomes, like most of the people here), in the continental Europe you can nowadays easily buy an apartment in a Passivhaus (or almost if renovated) building, with underfloor heating throughout the place, supplied by a geothermal heat pump, with triple-glazed windows and external covers that give you the utmost quietness even when there's traffic just outside. You can't get that in the US because even if you were willing to pay, there exist only a handful of construction companies that know how to build that, and they're all booked for years. > I know modern structures are better but I also don’t entirely trust block in an earthquake. Obviously less of a concern in most (not all!) of Europe. You can take a look at Japan. Modern buildings can withstand earthquakes. The issue in the US is that developers are allowed to just build without a civil engineer or architect designing the building. I wouldn't trust that either.
retired 8mo ago
That means everything in your house is literally set in stone. Sometimes people want to redecorate, have plumbing in a different location or a TV on a different wall.
- ragall 8mo ago
  Sometimes people want stupid things. It's not difficult to hire masons that will redo internal walls. It's just a bit more expensive.
  - retired 8mo ago
    My father grew up in a home without central heating or an indoor toilet. Last time that home was listed on the market it had underfloor heating, two bathrooms, triple paned glass, an extension on the roof and various other modern amenities. Times change, houses should too. We are not longer pooping in an outhouse anymore. I guess at one point people would wonder why you would want to poop inside the home, and call it "sometimes people want stupid things".
    - ragall 8mo ago
      [flagged]

by ragall 8mo ago

encom 8mo ago

>European standards mandate passing all wiring through corrugated tubes. Incorrect. It's usually done, because it's a good idea, but nobody says you have to.

ragall 8mo ago
Maybe in your country. In Italy it's illegal not to use appropriate corrugated tubes.
- retired 8mo ago
  Bribery and tax fraud is also illegal in Italy but that didn't stop Berlusconi.
  - ragall 8mo ago
    [flagged]
ProllyInfamous 8mo ago
There are residential jurisdictions within USA that require metal conduit between jboxes (e.g. Chicagoland) — initially more expensive, but much easier to modify/update. Flexible plastic conduit doesn't seem to offer barely any more protection than a standard US NM sheathed cable. As an electrician of two decades, my commonest USA gripes are these: •) grounding wires should always have insulation, too (instead of just bare) •) modern NM isn't protected enough (neither physically nor chemically) •) jboxes should have better wire anchoring inside, and bigger in general •) oldwork cut-in jboxes aren't substantial enough even perfectly installed for long-term use (if you screw them to an adjacent stud they're great, but this is against code for grounding reasons).
- ragall 8mo ago
  The main usefulness of plastic conduits is not protection, but being able to pass new wires without opening the walls.

lazide 8mo ago

Eh, people have a terrible time renovating or adding anything in housing in Europe. A lot of construction doesn’t have those tubes. It’s hard to articulate how wildly different habits are in Europe vs US around things like ‘what electrical appliances I have’ partially because of this. Housing tends to be a lot smaller too, largely due to population density differences, but also overall differences in economic earning power and ease of buying things.

ragall 8mo ago
It's not any different from having to renovate a 40's house in the US. You'll have to redo all the plumbing and electrical system to current code. Corrugated tubes have been common since the 90s and mandatory shortly thereafter.
- lazide 8mo ago
  Most European housing is made of concrete, stone, or brick. It absolutely is different from typical US housing, because unless you want to run surface mount everything (which most people don’t in residential), it’s an insane amount of work to run new anything. ‘40’s homes in the US, you typically just tear down to the studs, re-run new stuff, and throw up new drywall. Boom, done. Unless you’re in a place that did block/brick etc like some of the big cities, then yeah it’s a nightmare there too.
  - ragall 8mo ago
    To properly redo an old house, you'll have to redo the siding and probably the roof too.
    - lazide 8mo ago
      Yes, if they weren’t redone separately. Each of them has their own lifecycles, so it’s rare they all get done at once. At that point, most people will just do a full teardown.

CalRobert 8mo ago

Having owned a couple European houses they’re horrible to alter and mediocre on energy. I miss nice adaptable wood structures. Bizarrely Europeans seem to think their cinderblock homes are nicer…

Insanity 8mo ago
I've never wanted to adapt a house that significantly. But yeah, I much prefer the cinderblock homes and miss them. Something about the wood and drywall houses just feels incredibly cheap, and I don't like the aesthetic (de gustibus et coloribus..) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Little_Pigs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Little_Pigs
- CalRobert 8mo ago
  To each their own I guess. I’ll happily move walls, add or remove a bathroom, add windows, etc. Terrible carbon footprint for concrete too. I know modern structures are better but I also don’t entirely trust block in an earthquake. Obviously less of a concern in most (not all!) of Europe.
  - ragall 8mo ago
    > To each their own I guess. I’ll happily move walls, add or remove a bathroom, add windows, etc. A sign of the restlesness. Once you find a house to settle in, why would you need to change it ? European houses are typically versatile, US houses aren't due to having closets (which make a room's layout very inflexible) as well as electrical outlets being mandated exactly in the middle of the wall precisely where one would like to place furniture. US building codes are beyond stupid. > Terrible carbon footprint for concrete too. Carbon footprint is not that important. I want comfort. More specifically: if you are somewhat wealthy (in the top 10% of incomes, like most of the people here), in the continental Europe you can nowadays easily buy an apartment in a Passivhaus (or almost if renovated) building, with underfloor heating throughout the place, supplied by a geothermal heat pump, with triple-glazed windows and external covers that give you the utmost quietness even when there's traffic just outside. You can't get that in the US because even if you were willing to pay, there exist only a handful of construction companies that know how to build that, and they're all booked for years. > I know modern structures are better but I also don’t entirely trust block in an earthquake. Obviously less of a concern in most (not all!) of Europe. You can take a look at Japan. Modern buildings can withstand earthquakes. The issue in the US is that developers are allowed to just build without a civil engineer or architect designing the building. I wouldn't trust that either.

retired 8mo ago

That means everything in your house is literally set in stone. Sometimes people want to redecorate, have plumbing in a different location or a TV on a different wall.

ragall 8mo ago
Sometimes people want stupid things. It's not difficult to hire masons that will redo internal walls. It's just a bit more expensive.
- retired 8mo ago
  My father grew up in a home without central heating or an indoor toilet. Last time that home was listed on the market it had underfloor heating, two bathrooms, triple paned glass, an extension on the roof and various other modern amenities. Times change, houses should too. We are not longer pooping in an outhouse anymore. I guess at one point people would wonder why you would want to poop inside the home, and call it "sometimes people want stupid things".
  - ragall 8mo ago
    [flagged]