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I'm old enough to remember that time the Obama administration requested Edward Snowdens private SSL keys from Lavabit, because it would have opened up every ema

I'm old enough to remember that time the Obama administration requested Edward Snowdens private SSL keys from Lavabit, because it would have opened up every email from every single user. So the owner nuked everything and was held in contempt of court. He was forbidden from talking about it for months too. Don't give too much unprecedented power to the government. It doesn't matter who the president is. They've all done some net-evil that feeds power to the next guy, and the next guy, until it's too late. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/lavabit-ladar-levison-fbi-encryption-keys-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/lavabit-ladar-...

throwawayq3423 9mo ago
Edward Snowden had stolen the most sensitive classified secrets from The United States Intelligence Community and Donald Trump is looking to squash dissent of his attempts to nullify the Constitution and establish a dictatorship. I get what you're saying, but please have some perspective. the two things are not even remotely similar.
- iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
  Friend, if you followed Snowden's saga at all, you would know that those events don't need to be similar to be relevant to the discussion at hand. In other words, just because you have a problem with Trump, does not mean the two issues are not connected.
  - throwawayq3423 9mo ago
    Who was imprisoned for their speech against the US president by Obama and how did Snowden stop that? Because that is exactly what we're talking about here. And if you don't have a like-for-like comparison, then we have nothing to discuss.
    - iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
      If you think for a moment of arguing that throwing people in jail is the only way to impede someone's liberty, you are in for a world of a surprise.
      - throwawayq3423 9mo ago
        It's the standard we're discussing. It's what Donald Trump's DHS is doing right now and the Snowden comparisons are irrelevant and imo a bad faith attempt at trying to muddy the waters. Stop both sides-ing everything the Trump administration does to give them more oxygen to operate. These are uniquely awful times.
        iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
        << Stop both sides-ing everything the Trump administration does to give them more oxygen to operate. Friendo,the sooner you recognize it is both sides, the sooner you can step off the merry go round.
        throwawayq3423 9mo ago
        One more try, what did Obama in terms of abusing his police state targeting American citizens that even approached what we are seeing with ICE, the FBI, etc. right now.
        iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
        Hmm. You are putting me in quite a pickle, but I can't tell if you are being serious or not. Obama was almost literally Bush 2.0, but with better PR and media coverage. Fuck man. Here is a short list of how he explictly expanded police state that impacted actual American citizens ( and not random criminal aliens ICE picks up ): - Targetted killing of US citizen without a trial via drone strike ( Anwar al-Awlaki ) - Signed 2012 NDAA with 'indefinite detention' provisions - Extended Patriot ACT in 2011 - Re-authorized FISA in 2012 - Defended post-Snowden NSA metadata collection - Seized reporter's property in leak investigation edit: - 'fast and furious' which effectively created a problem, which at best can be considered reckless if not planned and pretty evil if actually intended to work the way it did Seriously man, unless you literally just started observing politics, you may want to reconsider your high horse stance.
- tehjoker 9mo ago
  What they did to snowden was illegitimate but at least they had the cover that he was an insider that had signed a contract with the government. They are going after random ass people expressing a 1A opinion now. Legally very different ballgames even though both dissenters are correct to voice their opinions and knowledge and should not have been pursued for objecting to extravagant government wrongdoing.
- monocasa 9mo ago
  To be fair, those sensitive secrets included secret, unconstitutional, dragnet surveillance programs targeting american citizens, and the fact that the director of national intelligence had perjured himself during congressional hearings on those programs.
  - throwawayq3423 9mo ago
    Less than 1% of what Snowden took and leaked pertained to domestic surveillance programs, The rest was intelligence capabilities and sources and methods. But that's besides the point. There is a real argument that the U.S. government, in trying to catch Snowden, was protecting national security. There is no such argument with Trump.
    - esseph 9mo ago
      > was protecting national security No, it was retribution. The info was already out there when they were going after him. Even if he stayed in the US and was captured, it still wouldn't have "stopped" anything.
      - throwawayq3423 9mo ago
        > The info was already out there when they were going after him. This was of course not known at the time. The only thing that was known is that a single individual was responsible for the greatest breach of classified secrets in the nation's history, and that individual was still at large. > was protecting national security So yes, it was.
        esseph 9mo ago
        The federal government was found violating the constitution, and yet he's the bad guy. Nonsense.
        throwawayq3423 9mo ago
        > The federal government was found violating the constitution This was of course not known at the time.
- esseph 9mo ago
  > I get what you're saying, but please have some perspective. the two things are not even remotely similar. Snowden sacrificed a comfortable life, his friends, and family to tell the American people they were being lied to. He exposed things that people SHOULD HAVE gone to prison for. Snowden is a hero, period.
  - throwawayq3423 9mo ago
    > Snowden sacrificed a comfortable life Yes and all he had to gain was international celebrity. Please understand the role that ego plays in actions such as this.
softwaredoug 9mo ago
One difference, this was in response to an actual search warrant granted by a judge. What DHS is doing are administrative warrants, with no judicial overview (unless you sue to stop them).
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- Terr_ 9mo ago
  We shouldn't dignify their schemes with their jargon: They are generating internal memos and submitting complaint/threat letters.
- charcircuit 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Gud 9mo ago
    No they aren’t.
    - charcircuit 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - Terr_ 9mo ago
        Ah, you must not be American. At least over here--the subject of the news post--that belief would be considered pro-dictatorship nonsense. The US Federal government has different branches, and only certain branches have certain powers. This is widely known because we teach this to US children before they are 14 years old, sometimes aided by literal cartoons. These "warrants" are not at all equivalent, the same way that a President cannot dream up and declare a "law" (even if he calls it that) because only Congress may make those.
        PearlRiver 9mo ago
dymk 9mo ago
Sounds like a whole bunch of “both sides!!” This ain’t the same
- GaryBluto 9mo ago
  [flagged]
- guerrilla 9mo ago
  [flagged]
- giancarlostoro 9mo ago
  Yeah? Because you can't just flip flop on these things once you open the can of worms, the next administration has the same toy box you leave behind.
  - johnnyanmac 9mo ago
    >you can't just flip flop on these things once you open the can of worms You sort of can when one is done illegally to begin with. While I don't like the Snowden overreach it was done through proper legal channels. The discussion there should be focused on a judge giving too much leeway in their subpeona, not that this is the same was what's happening now.
helterskelter 9mo ago
I had an account at the time! He gave the govt the key, handwritten on paper, to stall for time so he could delete everything. I wish every admin had that sort of integrity. He had a followup project, magma (https://github.com/lavabit/magma https://github.com/lavabit/magma), that was supposed to be a secure email alternative. It's a shame it never took off.
webdoodle 9mo ago
[flagged]
hypeatei 9mo ago
> It doesn't matter who the president is It clearly does as your comment was very pointed towards Obama but fails to mention Trump once. I'm curious as to why that would be? Are you ignoring the massive amount of funding that ICE/DHS has received to invade cities of the President's opponents to crush dissent? Or maybe the threats of face scanning to be put on a "domestic terrorist" list? I don't recall Obama doing those things. A common pattern I'm seeing during this admin is: good things are attributed directly to Trump, but bad things are the government having too much power that his predecessors can be blamed for. "Good tsar, bad boyars"
- giancarlostoro 9mo ago
  Because it distracts from the point I'm making. Our founding fathers setup this country a certain way, and along the way we left the different branches of government to assume new powers without any amendments, and now we're surprised that they're walking all over the constitution? This problem extends beyond the current administration. It will only get worse before it gets better. Remember, someone FAR WORSE can run for president, someone far worse can absolutely win. Don't make the assumption that your current least favorite administration will be as worse as it gets, because that is how you wind up giving that future administration the keys to the kingdom.
  - thrance 9mo ago
    You're freeing this administration from any blame. No system of governance can resist a sufficiently powerful authoritarian push. If the Democratic Party is to share part of the blame, it's in the fact that it is completely bought by special interests and thus unwilling to push pack against the Republicans. But don't be mistaken, this is entirely on Republicans, both their corrupt politicians and stupid voter base who cheer on their rights being trodden upon, as long as the other side suffers more.
    - giancarlostoro 9mo ago
      You are putting words in my mouth and taking away from my point. I equally blame the previous administration for leaving a privacy invasive apparatus, as stated by others here this goes back to the Patriot Act.
barfiure 9mo ago
Old enough is right. People forget the HN thread on the last day of Obama’s presidency and the bill he signed to expand the drone program. We should have given him another peace prize after that.
jimbo808 9mo ago
> until it's too late. I'm afraid it's far too late.
- giancarlostoro 9mo ago
  It can get much worse.

throwawayq3423 9mo ago

Edward Snowden had stolen the most sensitive classified secrets from The United States Intelligence Community and Donald Trump is looking to squash dissent of his attempts to nullify the Constitution and establish a dictatorship. I get what you're saying, but please have some perspective. the two things are not even remotely similar.

iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
Friend, if you followed Snowden's saga at all, you would know that those events don't need to be similar to be relevant to the discussion at hand. In other words, just because you have a problem with Trump, does not mean the two issues are not connected.
- throwawayq3423 9mo ago
  Who was imprisoned for their speech against the US president by Obama and how did Snowden stop that? Because that is exactly what we're talking about here. And if you don't have a like-for-like comparison, then we have nothing to discuss.
  - iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
    If you think for a moment of arguing that throwing people in jail is the only way to impede someone's liberty, you are in for a world of a surprise.
    - throwawayq3423 9mo ago
      It's the standard we're discussing. It's what Donald Trump's DHS is doing right now and the Snowden comparisons are irrelevant and imo a bad faith attempt at trying to muddy the waters. Stop both sides-ing everything the Trump administration does to give them more oxygen to operate. These are uniquely awful times.
      - iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
        << Stop both sides-ing everything the Trump administration does to give them more oxygen to operate. Friendo,the sooner you recognize it is both sides, the sooner you can step off the merry go round.
        throwawayq3423 9mo ago
        One more try, what did Obama in terms of abusing his police state targeting American citizens that even approached what we are seeing with ICE, the FBI, etc. right now.
        iugtmkbdfil834 9mo ago
        Hmm. You are putting me in quite a pickle, but I can't tell if you are being serious or not. Obama was almost literally Bush 2.0, but with better PR and media coverage. Fuck man. Here is a short list of how he explictly expanded police state that impacted actual American citizens ( and not random criminal aliens ICE picks up ): - Targetted killing of US citizen without a trial via drone strike ( Anwar al-Awlaki ) - Signed 2012 NDAA with 'indefinite detention' provisions - Extended Patriot ACT in 2011 - Re-authorized FISA in 2012 - Defended post-Snowden NSA metadata collection - Seized reporter's property in leak investigation edit: - 'fast and furious' which effectively created a problem, which at best can be considered reckless if not planned and pretty evil if actually intended to work the way it did Seriously man, unless you literally just started observing politics, you may want to reconsider your high horse stance.
tehjoker 9mo ago
What they did to snowden was illegitimate but at least they had the cover that he was an insider that had signed a contract with the government. They are going after random ass people expressing a 1A opinion now. Legally very different ballgames even though both dissenters are correct to voice their opinions and knowledge and should not have been pursued for objecting to extravagant government wrongdoing.
monocasa 9mo ago
To be fair, those sensitive secrets included secret, unconstitutional, dragnet surveillance programs targeting american citizens, and the fact that the director of national intelligence had perjured himself during congressional hearings on those programs.
- throwawayq3423 9mo ago
  Less than 1% of what Snowden took and leaked pertained to domestic surveillance programs, The rest was intelligence capabilities and sources and methods. But that's besides the point. There is a real argument that the U.S. government, in trying to catch Snowden, was protecting national security. There is no such argument with Trump.
  - esseph 9mo ago
    > was protecting national security No, it was retribution. The info was already out there when they were going after him. Even if he stayed in the US and was captured, it still wouldn't have "stopped" anything.
    - throwawayq3423 9mo ago
      > The info was already out there when they were going after him. This was of course not known at the time. The only thing that was known is that a single individual was responsible for the greatest breach of classified secrets in the nation's history, and that individual was still at large. > was protecting national security So yes, it was.
      - esseph 9mo ago
        The federal government was found violating the constitution, and yet he's the bad guy. Nonsense.
        throwawayq3423 9mo ago
        > The federal government was found violating the constitution This was of course not known at the time.
esseph 9mo ago
> I get what you're saying, but please have some perspective. the two things are not even remotely similar. Snowden sacrificed a comfortable life, his friends, and family to tell the American people they were being lied to. He exposed things that people SHOULD HAVE gone to prison for. Snowden is a hero, period.
- throwawayq3423 9mo ago
  > Snowden sacrificed a comfortable life Yes and all he had to gain was international celebrity. Please understand the role that ego plays in actions such as this.

softwaredoug 9mo ago

One difference, this was in response to an actual search warrant granted by a judge. What DHS is doing are administrative warrants, with no judicial overview (unless you sue to stop them).

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
Terr_ 9mo ago
We shouldn't dignify their schemes with their jargon: They are generating internal memos and submitting complaint/threat letters.
charcircuit 9mo ago
[flagged]
- Gud 9mo ago
  No they aren’t.
  - charcircuit 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - Terr_ 9mo ago
      Ah, you must not be American. At least over here--the subject of the news post--that belief would be considered pro-dictatorship nonsense. The US Federal government has different branches, and only certain branches have certain powers. This is widely known because we teach this to US children before they are 14 years old, sometimes aided by literal cartoons. These "warrants" are not at all equivalent, the same way that a President cannot dream up and declare a "law" (even if he calls it that) because only Congress may make those.
      - PearlRiver 9mo ago

dymk 9mo ago

Sounds like a whole bunch of “both sides!!” This ain’t the same

GaryBluto 9mo ago
[flagged]
guerrilla 9mo ago
[flagged]
giancarlostoro 9mo ago
Yeah? Because you can't just flip flop on these things once you open the can of worms, the next administration has the same toy box you leave behind.
- johnnyanmac 9mo ago
  >you can't just flip flop on these things once you open the can of worms You sort of can when one is done illegally to begin with. While I don't like the Snowden overreach it was done through proper legal channels. The discussion there should be focused on a judge giving too much leeway in their subpeona, not that this is the same was what's happening now.

helterskelter 9mo ago

I had an account at the time! He gave the govt the key, handwritten on paper, to stall for time so he could delete everything. I wish every admin had that sort of integrity. He had a followup project, magma (https://github.com/lavabit/magma https://github.com/lavabit/magma), that was supposed to be a secure email alternative. It's a shame it never took off.

webdoodle 9mo ago

[flagged]

hypeatei 9mo ago

> It doesn't matter who the president is It clearly does as your comment was very pointed towards Obama but fails to mention Trump once. I'm curious as to why that would be? Are you ignoring the massive amount of funding that ICE/DHS has received to invade cities of the President's opponents to crush dissent? Or maybe the threats of face scanning to be put on a "domestic terrorist" list? I don't recall Obama doing those things. A common pattern I'm seeing during this admin is: good things are attributed directly to Trump, but bad things are the government having too much power that his predecessors can be blamed for. "Good tsar, bad boyars"

giancarlostoro 9mo ago
Because it distracts from the point I'm making. Our founding fathers setup this country a certain way, and along the way we left the different branches of government to assume new powers without any amendments, and now we're surprised that they're walking all over the constitution? This problem extends beyond the current administration. It will only get worse before it gets better. Remember, someone FAR WORSE can run for president, someone far worse can absolutely win. Don't make the assumption that your current least favorite administration will be as worse as it gets, because that is how you wind up giving that future administration the keys to the kingdom.
- thrance 9mo ago
  You're freeing this administration from any blame. No system of governance can resist a sufficiently powerful authoritarian push. If the Democratic Party is to share part of the blame, it's in the fact that it is completely bought by special interests and thus unwilling to push pack against the Republicans. But don't be mistaken, this is entirely on Republicans, both their corrupt politicians and stupid voter base who cheer on their rights being trodden upon, as long as the other side suffers more.
  - giancarlostoro 9mo ago
    You are putting words in my mouth and taking away from my point. I equally blame the previous administration for leaving a privacy invasive apparatus, as stated by others here this goes back to the Patriot Act.

barfiure 9mo ago

Old enough is right. People forget the HN thread on the last day of Obama’s presidency and the bill he signed to expand the drone program. We should have given him another peace prize after that.

jimbo808 9mo ago

> until it's too late. I'm afraid it's far too late.

giancarlostoro 9mo ago
It can get much worse.