3 ms·

Designing a 36-key custom keyboard layout (2021)

35 points by speckx 9mo ago

bjoli 9mo ago
I had it as a mind game for a while to design keyboard layouts that would be optimal for Swedish, German and English (my main languages). I found that you can only get so far with algorithmic approaches. I liked the ones I designed without computer help much better than the one i made with generic algorithms or machine learning, despite being worse on paper. Neither "combos" or distance travelled explained what made the layouts good. Now, I never used any of the layouts for more than a month or two, but it was still a fun experiment.
- zwarag 9mo ago
  Have you had a look at EurKey layout? I, too, have to switch between English, German and Italian and I found it to be great. https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/?lang=de https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/?lang=de
  - bojan 9mo ago
    This is very interesting, but WestEurKey would have been a more suitable name, as there is no support for Slavic languages.
- lawn 9mo ago
  I found the same. I optimized it for English and Swedish, with a focus on coding with Vim, and going by feel worked out well for me. Here's the first post: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2021/06/03/the-t-34-keyboard-layout/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2021/06/03/the-t-34-keyboar... My current layout looks a bit different though: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybershard_layout/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...
readingnews 9mo ago
I will admit, I type exclusively on 40% keyboards. I used to have a Happy Hacking Keyboard, (in fact, the original Happy Hacking Keyboard (HHKB) with separate PS/2, Sun and ADB cables, still have the board and cables), then the HHKB USB, then the HHKB 2. One day I saw a 40%, in fact an original "minivan" by "The Van Keyboards" and thought I would give it a shot. For someone who uses the computer all day, this was an advancement over the HHKB in the same way the HHKB was an advancement over the 104: * Your hands move a lot less during typing. * Your hand is much (_much_) closer to the mouse to grab it. Even though there is a slight learning curve using layers, after a short while it becomes just like the muscle reflex for "hit shift to use the alphanumerics", etc. When I have to run into the data center or go somewhere and use a "real" keyboard for a moment, I am reminded of just what a huge time difference it is to grab the mouse, or reach for keys like PGUP/PGDWN, etc. It may not be for everyone, but I advocate for giving small keyboards (even split ones) a try.
- PunchyHamster 9mo ago
  I feel most people could get like 80% benefits with simple key moves rather than macroing: * add column of common movement keys (pgup/down/home/end) on the left side * move entire numpad block after that (so its leftmost) * remove the spacing between the top level FX/esc keys if you don't need arrows, that immediately puts your mouse good 6.5 cm closer I especially don't get losing the numeric top of the keyboard but that's mostly because I actively use the Fx keys for window navigation (one window per key,capslock+ 1-9 get the left monitor, F1-9 get the right).
wingerlang 9mo ago
I’m going the opposite way. I had a smaller keyboard (60% maybe) but I got one with the F-keys recently. Because I can assign one or more macros to each dedicated button. I am considering a second keyboard exclusively to be a macro pad, but my KVM setup is already at its limits.
Surac 9mo ago
i use a old Logitec G15 Keyboard (the first one) for every computer- i even bought 6 keyboards as a "stock" to have replacements
exitb 9mo ago
I think it makes sense to try to get down to 34 keys. The two keys that require being pressed with a curled thumb sure don't feel too ergonomic. I can recommend Callum-style mods[1] to get there, which are a sane alternative to home row mods. [1] https://github.com/callum-oakley/qmk_firmware/tree/master/users/callum https://github.com/callum-oakley/qmk_firmware/tree/master/us...
- ValentinPearce 9mo ago
  I'm also on 34 keys though I might go up to 36 when the mikefive[1] comes out. I started with my mods on my thumb keys, then moved to home row mods but as I got faster (not blazing, just 60+WPM) they would often trigger accidentally.t I ended up looking a bit more into it and stumbled upon urob's timeless home row mods[2] and they work pretty well. Have only had a couple accidental triggers but I'm pretty sure they would be better with a dedicated shift key, hence the interest in 36 keys. I might have a look at a combo to have a delay-less shift but I quite like how my layout is at the moment[3] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/mikefive_a_kailh_pg1316_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/... [2] https://github.com/urob/zmk-config?tab=readme-ov-file#timeless-homerow-mods https://github.com/urob/zmk-config?tab=readme-ov-file#timele... [3] https://github.com/ValentinPearce/zmk-config https://github.com/ValentinPearce/zmk-config
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
regularfry 9mo ago
My daily drivers are 44-keys, keyboard.io Atreus layout. It's taken me quite a bit of tuning to avoid excessive chording with what's on each layer while keeping things conceptually related, but it feels like I've had fewer trade-offs to navigate than this. It does surprise me that this particular configuration of keys (5x4+2) isn't more popular - you don't have quite the number of contortions that the 5x3+3 pads force you into, and you don't have the bulk and extra stretch of the next common size up, which seems to be 6x4+2...
nick__m 9mo ago
Reading those keyboards posts, and the accompanying replies, make me feel like an unwashed troglodyte; 96-key is the lowest I am willing to go.
plagiarist 9mo ago
I love articles like these. I have a lot of similar thoughts as the author on what I want from a keyboard so I'll have to come back and read more in-depth later. 3x6 and some thumb keys ended up being my sweet spot. I need the extra keys just for a discrete esc key and so I can recall where I left the quotes at. I'm already struggling to remember the symbol layer I set up so it is worth it for me.

35 points by speckx 9mo ago

bjoli 9mo ago

I had it as a mind game for a while to design keyboard layouts that would be optimal for Swedish, German and English (my main languages). I found that you can only get so far with algorithmic approaches. I liked the ones I designed without computer help much better than the one i made with generic algorithms or machine learning, despite being worse on paper. Neither "combos" or distance travelled explained what made the layouts good. Now, I never used any of the layouts for more than a month or two, but it was still a fun experiment.

zwarag 9mo ago
Have you had a look at EurKey layout? I, too, have to switch between English, German and Italian and I found it to be great. https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/?lang=de https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/?lang=de
- bojan 9mo ago
  This is very interesting, but WestEurKey would have been a more suitable name, as there is no support for Slavic languages.
lawn 9mo ago
I found the same. I optimized it for English and Swedish, with a focus on coding with Vim, and going by feel worked out well for me. Here's the first post: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2021/06/03/the-t-34-keyboard-layout/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2021/06/03/the-t-34-keyboar... My current layout looks a bit different though: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybershard_layout/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...

readingnews 9mo ago

I will admit, I type exclusively on 40% keyboards. I used to have a Happy Hacking Keyboard, (in fact, the original Happy Hacking Keyboard (HHKB) with separate PS/2, Sun and ADB cables, still have the board and cables), then the HHKB USB, then the HHKB 2. One day I saw a 40%, in fact an original "minivan" by "The Van Keyboards" and thought I would give it a shot. For someone who uses the computer all day, this was an advancement over the HHKB in the same way the HHKB was an advancement over the 104: * Your hands move a lot less during typing. * Your hand is much (_much_) closer to the mouse to grab it. Even though there is a slight learning curve using layers, after a short while it becomes just like the muscle reflex for "hit shift to use the alphanumerics", etc. When I have to run into the data center or go somewhere and use a "real" keyboard for a moment, I am reminded of just what a huge time difference it is to grab the mouse, or reach for keys like PGUP/PGDWN, etc. It may not be for everyone, but I advocate for giving small keyboards (even split ones) a try.

PunchyHamster 9mo ago
I feel most people could get like 80% benefits with simple key moves rather than macroing: * add column of common movement keys (pgup/down/home/end) on the left side * move entire numpad block after that (so its leftmost) * remove the spacing between the top level FX/esc keys if you don't need arrows, that immediately puts your mouse good 6.5 cm closer I especially don't get losing the numeric top of the keyboard but that's mostly because I actively use the Fx keys for window navigation (one window per key,capslock+ 1-9 get the left monitor, F1-9 get the right).

wingerlang 9mo ago

I’m going the opposite way. I had a smaller keyboard (60% maybe) but I got one with the F-keys recently. Because I can assign one or more macros to each dedicated button. I am considering a second keyboard exclusively to be a macro pad, but my KVM setup is already at its limits.

Surac 9mo ago

i use a old Logitec G15 Keyboard (the first one) for every computer- i even bought 6 keyboards as a "stock" to have replacements

exitb 9mo ago

I think it makes sense to try to get down to 34 keys. The two keys that require being pressed with a curled thumb sure don't feel too ergonomic. I can recommend Callum-style mods[1] to get there, which are a sane alternative to home row mods. [1] https://github.com/callum-oakley/qmk_firmware/tree/master/users/callum https://github.com/callum-oakley/qmk_firmware/tree/master/us...

ValentinPearce 9mo ago
I'm also on 34 keys though I might go up to 36 when the mikefive[1] comes out. I started with my mods on my thumb keys, then moved to home row mods but as I got faster (not blazing, just 60+WPM) they would often trigger accidentally.t I ended up looking a bit more into it and stumbled upon urob's timeless home row mods[2] and they work pretty well. Have only had a couple accidental triggers but I'm pretty sure they would be better with a dedicated shift key, hence the interest in 36 keys. I might have a look at a combo to have a delay-less shift but I quite like how my layout is at the moment[3] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/mikefive_a_kailh_pg1316_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/... [2] https://github.com/urob/zmk-config?tab=readme-ov-file#timeless-homerow-mods https://github.com/urob/zmk-config?tab=readme-ov-file#timele... [3] https://github.com/ValentinPearce/zmk-config https://github.com/ValentinPearce/zmk-config

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

regularfry 9mo ago

My daily drivers are 44-keys, keyboard.io Atreus layout. It's taken me quite a bit of tuning to avoid excessive chording with what's on each layer while keeping things conceptually related, but it feels like I've had fewer trade-offs to navigate than this. It does surprise me that this particular configuration of keys (5x4+2) isn't more popular - you don't have quite the number of contortions that the 5x3+3 pads force you into, and you don't have the bulk and extra stretch of the next common size up, which seems to be 6x4+2...

nick__m 9mo ago

Reading those keyboards posts, and the accompanying replies, make me feel like an unwashed troglodyte; 96-key is the lowest I am willing to go.

plagiarist 9mo ago

I love articles like these. I have a lot of similar thoughts as the author on what I want from a keyboard so I'll have to come back and read more in-depth later. 3x6 and some thumb keys ended up being my sweet spot. I need the extra keys just for a discrete esc key and so I can recall where I left the quotes at. I'm already struggling to remember the symbol layer I set up so it is worth it for me.