5 ms·

Say what you want about some of their other business practices, but they appear to have successfully destroyed rents in the retail industry, which is great for

by iyulaev 14y ago

Say what you want about some of their other business practices, but they appear to have successfully destroyed rents in the retail industry, which is great for consumers of retail. Regardless of how they do for their shareholders, that is a real benefit to society. Right?

pyoung 14y ago
That is a difficult question to answer. A good parallel to what amazon is doing to retail is what globalization did to manufacturing. As we all know, manufacturing in the US has been gutted and is now largely based in developing countries. While this is good for the consumer because products are cheaper, this also resulted in a great deal of unemployment for a certain category of workers (primarily low skill). Retail, which is also a major employment source for low skill workers, is now facing similar pressure from companies like Amazon, who employ significantly fewer people than the companies that they replace. Ultimately, developed countries are going to have a difficult time finding good paying, reliable jobs for low skilled employees. This is an inevitable by-product of our shift to a globalized, modern economy and is one of the primary reasons why the US and Europe are struggling to keep their social safety programs solvent.
- ars 14y ago
  > As we all know, manufacturing in the US has been gutted and is now largely based in developing countries We all know it, and yet it's not actually true. America is the largest manufacturer in the world. The main that happened is America switched from making many multiples of cheap item, to making smaller quantities of much more expensive and complicated items.
  - WalterBright 14y ago
    The CNC mills have revolutionized small production runs. For example, it used to be very hard to restore old cars for which parts were no longer available. For example, decades ago a guy down the street restored some old Mercedes limousine he showed me, and I asked him how he dealt with the unavailablity of parts. He said "oh, I just made them" and showed me his fully equipped machine shop in his basement. That can now be done with a simple CNC machine. A lot of shops have sprung up that apparently have libraries of CNC designs, and they manufacture the parts on demand.
  - pyoung 14y ago
    I suppose I should change the language of my post to say that "manufacturing employment has been gutted", as that is what I actually meant. You are correct, there has been a resurgence in manufacturing in the US. The issue is that these new facilities are much more autonomous then their predecessors, and they are not going to result in pre-1980 manufacturing employment levels. While output may reach record highs, employment won't.
- WalterBright 14y ago
  I don't believe that. Throughout history, labor-saving machinery has put people out of work, and they become available labor for entirely new industries. For example, there's a growing industry now of digitizing the zillions of documents, books, photos, movies, art, etc. This is low skilled labor. Or Apple/Google/Microsoft sticking camera hats on people and having them hike trails to develop maps. The list is endless.
  - pyoung 14y ago
    Both of those examples seem like temporary solutions at best. And robotic tech already exists that could theoretically replace humans for those tasks. I may read too much sci-fi, but I am fully convinced that we are heading to a future where most menial, low skill tasks will soon be done by technology and robotics. We have been heading in that direction for quite some time and I don't see that changing. The end result is the near elimination of low skill jobs. This doesn't necessarily mean that people won't be able to find work, it's just that we will need to do a better job at educating them to prepare them for more high skilled labor.
    - busyant 14y ago
      > we will need to do a better job at educating them to prepare them for more high skilled labor. What about people who can't be educated for high-skilled labor? Seems like a taboo subject, but there are a lot of people like this in the world. What do they do? * edit. These labor shake-ups are going to take place in "high-skilled" areas, too. IBM's Watson can probably be trained to be more talented at illness diagnosis than most MDs. It will be interesting to see what happens to those MDs.
      - pyoung 14y ago
        Regarding your first point, I don't have an answer. But, for a more ironic take on the issue, please read 'Player Piano' by Vonnegut. Regarding your second point, I addressed this in the other post, but post-scarcity economics seems to be the best 'thought experiment' as to what a future society would look like. I truly believe that we are entering an age where human labor will become obsolete. It may take a while but, its going to happen.
ridiculous_fish 14y ago
Brick and mortar stores are essentially free showrooms for online retailers. How many of us decide which TV to buy at Best Buy, and then get it for less at Amazon? We may not like the consequences if B&M retailers are driven out of business, and we're forced to rely on dubious online reviews to make purchasing decisions.
- lotsofpulp 14y ago
  My experiences with online reviews have been great, especially compared to anything a big box store can offer. With the help of websites explaining the technical details, forums discussing the product, and reviews at places like Newegg and Amazon, I am armed with much better information that I would have been had I gone to Best Buy to look at something and asked an employee there. I can even look at manufacturer responses to reviews on Newegg, and ask other customers about specific issues I might have with a product. Of course, there is a possibility of the system being gamed, but I've had nothing but great experiences, although I am still vigilant for manipulated reviews. Edit: I also don't have to choose from substandard consumer products sold at most stores, with high markups on trivial things like wires. With monoprice, Amazon, newegg, and others I can get reliable, quality products for what they're actually worth.

by iyulaev 14y ago

pyoung 14y ago

That is a difficult question to answer. A good parallel to what amazon is doing to retail is what globalization did to manufacturing. As we all know, manufacturing in the US has been gutted and is now largely based in developing countries. While this is good for the consumer because products are cheaper, this also resulted in a great deal of unemployment for a certain category of workers (primarily low skill). Retail, which is also a major employment source for low skill workers, is now facing similar pressure from companies like Amazon, who employ significantly fewer people than the companies that they replace. Ultimately, developed countries are going to have a difficult time finding good paying, reliable jobs for low skilled employees. This is an inevitable by-product of our shift to a globalized, modern economy and is one of the primary reasons why the US and Europe are struggling to keep their social safety programs solvent.

ars 14y ago
> As we all know, manufacturing in the US has been gutted and is now largely based in developing countries We all know it, and yet it's not actually true. America is the largest manufacturer in the world. The main that happened is America switched from making many multiples of cheap item, to making smaller quantities of much more expensive and complicated items.
- WalterBright 14y ago
  The CNC mills have revolutionized small production runs. For example, it used to be very hard to restore old cars for which parts were no longer available. For example, decades ago a guy down the street restored some old Mercedes limousine he showed me, and I asked him how he dealt with the unavailablity of parts. He said "oh, I just made them" and showed me his fully equipped machine shop in his basement. That can now be done with a simple CNC machine. A lot of shops have sprung up that apparently have libraries of CNC designs, and they manufacture the parts on demand.
- pyoung 14y ago
  I suppose I should change the language of my post to say that "manufacturing employment has been gutted", as that is what I actually meant. You are correct, there has been a resurgence in manufacturing in the US. The issue is that these new facilities are much more autonomous then their predecessors, and they are not going to result in pre-1980 manufacturing employment levels. While output may reach record highs, employment won't.
WalterBright 14y ago
I don't believe that. Throughout history, labor-saving machinery has put people out of work, and they become available labor for entirely new industries. For example, there's a growing industry now of digitizing the zillions of documents, books, photos, movies, art, etc. This is low skilled labor. Or Apple/Google/Microsoft sticking camera hats on people and having them hike trails to develop maps. The list is endless.
- pyoung 14y ago
  Both of those examples seem like temporary solutions at best. And robotic tech already exists that could theoretically replace humans for those tasks. I may read too much sci-fi, but I am fully convinced that we are heading to a future where most menial, low skill tasks will soon be done by technology and robotics. We have been heading in that direction for quite some time and I don't see that changing. The end result is the near elimination of low skill jobs. This doesn't necessarily mean that people won't be able to find work, it's just that we will need to do a better job at educating them to prepare them for more high skilled labor.
  - busyant 14y ago
    > we will need to do a better job at educating them to prepare them for more high skilled labor. What about people who can't be educated for high-skilled labor? Seems like a taboo subject, but there are a lot of people like this in the world. What do they do? * edit. These labor shake-ups are going to take place in "high-skilled" areas, too. IBM's Watson can probably be trained to be more talented at illness diagnosis than most MDs. It will be interesting to see what happens to those MDs.
    - pyoung 14y ago
      Regarding your first point, I don't have an answer. But, for a more ironic take on the issue, please read 'Player Piano' by Vonnegut. Regarding your second point, I addressed this in the other post, but post-scarcity economics seems to be the best 'thought experiment' as to what a future society would look like. I truly believe that we are entering an age where human labor will become obsolete. It may take a while but, its going to happen.

ridiculous_fish 14y ago

Brick and mortar stores are essentially free showrooms for online retailers. How many of us decide which TV to buy at Best Buy, and then get it for less at Amazon? We may not like the consequences if B&M retailers are driven out of business, and we're forced to rely on dubious online reviews to make purchasing decisions.

lotsofpulp 14y ago
My experiences with online reviews have been great, especially compared to anything a big box store can offer. With the help of websites explaining the technical details, forums discussing the product, and reviews at places like Newegg and Amazon, I am armed with much better information that I would have been had I gone to Best Buy to look at something and asked an employee there. I can even look at manufacturer responses to reviews on Newegg, and ask other customers about specific issues I might have with a product. Of course, there is a possibility of the system being gamed, but I've had nothing but great experiences, although I am still vigilant for manipulated reviews. Edit: I also don't have to choose from substandard consumer products sold at most stores, with high markups on trivial things like wires. With monoprice, Amazon, newegg, and others I can get reliable, quality products for what they're actually worth.