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Discord says they'll use some AI garbage tool. Those are prone to mistakes over a large enough userbase. It will not be a rare occurrence for an adult to be l

Discord says they'll use some AI garbage tool. Those are prone to mistakes over a large enough userbase. It will not be a rare occurrence for an adult to be labelled a child until they debase themselves with a scan of their face or a copy of their government ID. For children - this mandate also still makes the decision on behalf of the parents that a child must submit a scan of their face to a third party. Moving to Persona for age verification involves verification data being sent outside of the user's phone - in direct contradiction to Discord's initial promise of keeping facial scan data solely on the phone. Third parties that we've been given no reason to trust will delete the data without using it for an improper purpose such as creating derivative info from the ID or facial scan itself unrelated to the sole purpose of verifying that an individual is an adult. While we're at it - is there any legitimate reason why Discord is associating a person's actual or estimated age with their account as opposed to storing a value that states if they are or are not an adult? That sort of granularity seems unrelated to the stated purpose.

mpeg 8mo ago
I don't love what discord is doing, but where are you getting the idea that discord is going to estimate the user's age using "some AI garbage tool"? The article says everyone is on "child" mode by default, and verification is only required if you need to use the features / access content marked as adult only.
- JohnMakin 8mo ago
  I know of at least one person who's child was flagged as 17 when they were 14. That seems like a mistake that should never, ever, ever happen if your goal is safety. The software sucks. The methodology sucks. The reason is flimsy at best.
  - eucyclos 8mo ago
    never, ever is quite strong wording when you're in an arms race with 14 year olds who want to gain illicit access to something digital. I know everyone's a digital native these days and real life isn't a 90s hacker movie, but 'rarely' already seems like a pretty high bar given how ingenious a 14 year old deprived of their preferred entertainment can get.
    - JohnMakin 8mo ago
      if your goal and reasoning is child safety this is a big issue that it can even happen. my point is these tools are unreliable. It is using a problem that cannot be fixed as justification for a big privacy invasion. I was 14 once too, that’s how I got into what I do now.
      - fushihara 8mo ago
        Then, out of respect for your view that children’s safety must be the absolute top priority and that false positives must never, ever be tolerated, let’s require people to personally visit Discord’s office in the United States with a government-issued ID, have it inspected, and formally swear an oath. Of course, Discord will retain the ID and the person’s facial photograph for a semi-permanent period. Naturally, that’s perfectly acceptable—after all, it’s for the safety of the children, right?
      - rockskon 8mo ago
        Not to mention it introduces different threats to safety when additional personal information of yours is made available to an entity you cannot audit in an industry famous for redefining privacy to mean "your data or derivatives of your data can be infinitely shared and sold and resold with little-to-no consequence". It introduces the threat of being personally unmasked to anyone and everyone is introduced in the event the verification system (or a component thereof containing your personal info) is hacked and data dumped to the public. It introduces the threat of your data being sold around with the "ground truth" of your identity and photo associated with it. And even if these threats aren't realized....it happens often enough with related companies that the uncertainty will forever be there. The threat of public humiliation. The threat of losing your job. The threat of losing your social connections. The threat of personal assault. All of these come to mind as concrete threats that have played out when someone has been doxed by a malicious person. And now the risk and consequence of doxing is made so much worse when your government ID is associated with chats that are ostensibly private.
        JohnMakin 8mo ago
- rockskon 8mo ago
  What I read explicitly stated use of AI would be involved in their guesswork of determining if a user is or is not an adult. Also - the outcry here isn't from people who think they will no longer be able to use Discord in any way, shape, or form without going through an age verification process. That's a bizarre strawman that doesn't represent the main grievances being aired.
- hypeatei 8mo ago
  > but where are you getting the idea that discord is going to estimate the user's age using "some AI garbage tool" "Additionally, Discord will implement its age inference model, a new system that runs in the background to help determine whether an account belongs to an adult, without always requiring users to verify their age"[0] 0: https://discord.com/press-releases/discord-launches-teen-by-default-settings-globally https://discord.com/press-releases/discord-launches-teen-by-...
  - mpeg 8mo ago
    Interesting, since they specifically say they do not use message content in the age inference I wonder if “AI” is smoke and mirrors here and the real way this works might be good old fashioned data buying. Since they have my email, they could infer my age based on purchase history, credit cards, etc all which is available to buy through the usual ad data brokers
    - WorldMaker 8mo ago
      That does seem to be the sort of heuristics they are implying.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- ehnto 8mo ago
  One aspect is already implemented, you open your webcame and it uses an AI tool to figure out if you are of age. This is obviously ineffective but I must admit it's a bit of a boon for privacy enthusiasts as you can pretty easily fake the webcam using a game engine. Presumably someone will make a purpose built tool. As well, if you aren't going to subvert it, and are willing to tie your identity to the discord account, it is still better than submitting government IDs.
true_religion 8mo ago
You don’t have to submit a picture of a face to prove you are child, because all accounts are “teen” accounts by default. If they were age-gating children to make a safe space, that would be one thing, but they are instead making an adults only area where sexual content and flirting is allowed. For many people this is a bonus, because now like in a bar, you always know the person you’re taking to is an adult.
WorldMaker 8mo ago
Discord has been using a third-party vendor in the UK for months now, and presumed to be using the same approach/vendor in the worldwide rollout. [0] The vendor is called k-ID: https://www.k-id.com/ https://www.k-id.com/ Their website includes a lot of technical details about their system. Including that their granularity they typically return in their API is just "ADULT" or not (per jurisdiction). [1] They also document all their international compliance standings including their assurances that data really doesn't leave user devices. At a glance, it seems a much better option than Persona, as k-ID's competition. Though arguably, yes, most of their options are still "AI garbage" under the hood. But that's what countries want right now. [0] https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/30326565624343-How-to-Complete-Age-Assurance-on-Discord https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/30326565624343... [1] https://docs.k-id.com/get-started/quickstart-guides/age-verification https://docs.k-id.com/get-started/quickstart-guides/age-veri...

mpeg 8mo ago

I don't love what discord is doing, but where are you getting the idea that discord is going to estimate the user's age using "some AI garbage tool"? The article says everyone is on "child" mode by default, and verification is only required if you need to use the features / access content marked as adult only.

JohnMakin 8mo ago
I know of at least one person who's child was flagged as 17 when they were 14. That seems like a mistake that should never, ever, ever happen if your goal is safety. The software sucks. The methodology sucks. The reason is flimsy at best.
- eucyclos 8mo ago
  never, ever is quite strong wording when you're in an arms race with 14 year olds who want to gain illicit access to something digital. I know everyone's a digital native these days and real life isn't a 90s hacker movie, but 'rarely' already seems like a pretty high bar given how ingenious a 14 year old deprived of their preferred entertainment can get.
  - JohnMakin 8mo ago
    if your goal and reasoning is child safety this is a big issue that it can even happen. my point is these tools are unreliable. It is using a problem that cannot be fixed as justification for a big privacy invasion. I was 14 once too, that’s how I got into what I do now.
    - fushihara 8mo ago
      Then, out of respect for your view that children’s safety must be the absolute top priority and that false positives must never, ever be tolerated, let’s require people to personally visit Discord’s office in the United States with a government-issued ID, have it inspected, and formally swear an oath. Of course, Discord will retain the ID and the person’s facial photograph for a semi-permanent period. Naturally, that’s perfectly acceptable—after all, it’s for the safety of the children, right?
    - rockskon 8mo ago
      Not to mention it introduces different threats to safety when additional personal information of yours is made available to an entity you cannot audit in an industry famous for redefining privacy to mean "your data or derivatives of your data can be infinitely shared and sold and resold with little-to-no consequence". It introduces the threat of being personally unmasked to anyone and everyone is introduced in the event the verification system (or a component thereof containing your personal info) is hacked and data dumped to the public. It introduces the threat of your data being sold around with the "ground truth" of your identity and photo associated with it. And even if these threats aren't realized....it happens often enough with related companies that the uncertainty will forever be there. The threat of public humiliation. The threat of losing your job. The threat of losing your social connections. The threat of personal assault. All of these come to mind as concrete threats that have played out when someone has been doxed by a malicious person. And now the risk and consequence of doxing is made so much worse when your government ID is associated with chats that are ostensibly private.
      - JohnMakin 8mo ago
rockskon 8mo ago
What I read explicitly stated use of AI would be involved in their guesswork of determining if a user is or is not an adult. Also - the outcry here isn't from people who think they will no longer be able to use Discord in any way, shape, or form without going through an age verification process. That's a bizarre strawman that doesn't represent the main grievances being aired.
hypeatei 8mo ago
> but where are you getting the idea that discord is going to estimate the user's age using "some AI garbage tool" "Additionally, Discord will implement its age inference model, a new system that runs in the background to help determine whether an account belongs to an adult, without always requiring users to verify their age"[0] 0: https://discord.com/press-releases/discord-launches-teen-by-default-settings-globally https://discord.com/press-releases/discord-launches-teen-by-...
- mpeg 8mo ago
  Interesting, since they specifically say they do not use message content in the age inference I wonder if “AI” is smoke and mirrors here and the real way this works might be good old fashioned data buying. Since they have my email, they could infer my age based on purchase history, credit cards, etc all which is available to buy through the usual ad data brokers
  - WorldMaker 8mo ago
    That does seem to be the sort of heuristics they are implying.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
ehnto 8mo ago
One aspect is already implemented, you open your webcame and it uses an AI tool to figure out if you are of age. This is obviously ineffective but I must admit it's a bit of a boon for privacy enthusiasts as you can pretty easily fake the webcam using a game engine. Presumably someone will make a purpose built tool. As well, if you aren't going to subvert it, and are willing to tie your identity to the discord account, it is still better than submitting government IDs.

true_religion 8mo ago

You don’t have to submit a picture of a face to prove you are child, because all accounts are “teen” accounts by default. If they were age-gating children to make a safe space, that would be one thing, but they are instead making an adults only area where sexual content and flirting is allowed. For many people this is a bonus, because now like in a bar, you always know the person you’re taking to is an adult.

WorldMaker 8mo ago

Discord has been using a third-party vendor in the UK for months now, and presumed to be using the same approach/vendor in the worldwide rollout. [0] The vendor is called k-ID: https://www.k-id.com/ https://www.k-id.com/ Their website includes a lot of technical details about their system. Including that their granularity they typically return in their API is just "ADULT" or not (per jurisdiction). [1] They also document all their international compliance standings including their assurances that data really doesn't leave user devices. At a glance, it seems a much better option than Persona, as k-ID's competition. Though arguably, yes, most of their options are still "AI garbage" under the hood. But that's what countries want right now. [0] https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/30326565624343-How-to-Complete-Age-Assurance-on-Discord https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/30326565624343... [1] https://docs.k-id.com/get-started/quickstart-guides/age-verification https://docs.k-id.com/get-started/quickstart-guides/age-veri...