6 ms·

I appreciate their effort but isn't Matrix (the company) based out of the UK and primary hosted instances on AWS in the UK? The UK were the first AFAIK to crea

by Bender 9mo ago

I appreciate their effort but isn't Matrix (the company) based out of the UK and primary hosted instances on AWS in the UK? The UK were the first AFAIK to create such internet laws [0]. I could imagine people running their own instances in places where the age laws are not yet active but that number is shrinking fast. [1] Their solution is for everyone to pay for Matrix with a credit card to verify age. I assume that means there must be a way to force only paid registered accounts to join ones instance? What percentage of the accounts on Discord are paid for with a credit or debit card? Or boosted? I don't keep up with terminology [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_age_verification_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_age_verification_in_the... [1] - https://avpassociation.com/4271-2/ https://avpassociation.com/4271-2/

Quothling 9mo ago
Couldn't you simply set up your own instance and link up with the wider network? I guess you would have to age verify yourself if you live in a country that requires it, but regulating that would be sort of hilarious.
- Bender 9mo ago
  Couldn't you simply set up your own instance and link up with the wider network? I honestly have no idea. As much as they love money I am not paying my lawyers to research AI this one. I would probably wait for others to get made example of.
- foresto 9mo ago
  Yes, you could. Whether or not authorities with jurisdiction over you would notice your instance (homeserver) or bother you about age verification is an issue you'd have to consider for yourself.
  - codebje 9mo ago
    I'm more familiar with Australian legislation than others, but here at least a home server would definitely not require age verification. Kids are free to make group chats with their friends in a bunch of services. The spirit of the law is definitely not against chatting with friends, but it is against the idea of connecting minors with strangers, so while federation is generally not codified (or, IMO, understood well by legislators) and you're probably not going to be bothered by authorities about it, I reckon sooner or later the law will come for federated networks. (Since we all seem fine just taking some uncertified random third party's word for it that their AI face recognition definitely didn't see a thumb with a face drawn on it, maybe it'd be adequate for Matrix.org to add an "18+ user" flag to the protocol and call it a day?)
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  The problem is that "simply" is a lie.
- kuschku 9mo ago
  Yes you can, and many have done so (including myself).
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
stevage 9mo ago
The Australian law doesn't care where servers are run. I don't know about others.
- Zak 9mo ago
  People without a physical or legal presence in Australia likely don't care what the Australian law cares about.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    Yeah that's the thing. No matter what you do, it's bound to be illegal somewhere in the world. Be it North Korea or Iran or Australia. You simply can't follow everyone's laws because they are often contradictory.
    - Bender 9mo ago
      ISIS cuts off hands for watching porn. They will have to cut through my porn induced callused skin using hydraulics.
      - ImJamal 9mo ago
        This is a bad example since you can just not watch porn. You wouldn't be violating the law anywhere since no country mandates you watch porn.
  - Namidairo 9mo ago
    It did however deliver the hilarious quote "The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia", in regards to end-to-end encrypted messaging.[1] It went down as well as about you would think it would. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-end-end-encryption-ban-says-laws-mathematics-dont-apply-down https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-en... (2017)
    - 9mo ago
fooqux 9mo ago
It's an interesting legal question, but I would imagine for a federated service, the burden of proof should be on the individual's home server for age verification. That's where the user account is, after all. Matrix is basically labeled "adults only" everywhere, so restricting certain servers/rooms due to possible innocent eyes is likely out of scope.
Zak 9mo ago
Matrix is a protocol, not a service. It's likely the UK government can enforce laws against content and accounts hosted on the matrix.org servers, but no single government has jurisdiction over the entire network.
- Bender 9mo ago
  Matrix is a protocol, not a service I thought it was both and their hosted service is in the UK. Is it not? I know people can host their own but I have had very little success in getting people to host their own things. Most here at HN will not do anything that requires more than their cell phone. Who knows maybe Discords actions will incentivize more people to self host.
  - esseph 9mo ago
    > had very little success in getting people to host their own things. Most here at HN will not do anything that requires more than their cell phone. You're just talking to the wrong ones :-)
    - Bender 9mo ago
      You're just talking to the wrong ones :-) I do hope you are right. Governments have more than enough low hanging fruit to go snatch up and then pat themselves on the back.
  - opan 9mo ago
    There's more than just the big flagship server and hosting your own. There are lots of small public servers you can sign up for, similar to email.
- toomuchtodo 9mo ago
  Like all global finance goes through NYC, they will find a throat to choke if motivated.
  - xethos 9mo ago
Arathorn 9mo ago
I wrote the OP, so to try to clarify: > isn't Matrix based out of the UK and primary hosted instances on AWS in the UK? It doesn't matter what country you run your server in or where your company is based; if you're providing public signup to a chat server then the countries (UK, AU, NZ etc) which require age verification will object if you don't age verify the users from those countries. (This is why Discord is doing it, despite being US HQ'd). In other words, the fact that The Matrix.org Foundation happens to be UK HQ'd doesn't affect the situation particularly. (Edit: also, as others have pointed out, Matrix is a protocol, not a service or a product. The Matrix Foundation is effectively a standards body which happens to run the matrix.org server instance, but the jurisdiction that the standards body is incorporated in makes little difference - just like IETF being US-based doesn't mean the Internet is actually controlled by the US govt). > Their solution is for everyone to pay for Matrix with a credit card to verify age. Verifying users in affected countries based on owning a credit card is one solution we're proposing; suspect there will be other ways to do so too. However: this would only apply on the matrix.org server instance. Meanwhile, there are 23,306 other servers currently federating with matrix.org (out of a total of 156,055) - and those other servers, if they provide public signup, can figure out how to solve the problem in their own way. Also, the current plan on the matrix.org server is to only verify users who are in affected countries (as opposed to try to verify the whole userbase as Discord is).
- Zak 9mo ago
  > It doesn't matter what country you run your server in or where your company is based; if you're providing public signup to a chat server then the countries (UK, AU, NZ etc) which require age verification will object if you don't age verify the users from those countries. (This is why Discord is doing it, despite being US HQ'd). Whether it matters depends very much on what sort of organization you are. Discord is a multinational for-profit corporation planning an IPO. It takes payments from users in those countries, likely partners with companies in those countries, and likely wants to sell stock to investors in those countries. Every one of those countries has the ability to punish Discord if it does not obey their laws, even if it does not have a physical presence there. The situation is likely quite different for most of the 23,306 Matrix servers that federate widely. The worst thing Australia, for example could do to one of their operators is make it legally hazardous for them to visit Australia.

by Bender 9mo ago

Quothling 9mo ago

Couldn't you simply set up your own instance and link up with the wider network? I guess you would have to age verify yourself if you live in a country that requires it, but regulating that would be sort of hilarious.

Bender 9mo ago
Couldn't you simply set up your own instance and link up with the wider network? I honestly have no idea. As much as they love money I am not paying my lawyers to research AI this one. I would probably wait for others to get made example of.
foresto 9mo ago
Yes, you could. Whether or not authorities with jurisdiction over you would notice your instance (homeserver) or bother you about age verification is an issue you'd have to consider for yourself.
- codebje 9mo ago
  I'm more familiar with Australian legislation than others, but here at least a home server would definitely not require age verification. Kids are free to make group chats with their friends in a bunch of services. The spirit of the law is definitely not against chatting with friends, but it is against the idea of connecting minors with strangers, so while federation is generally not codified (or, IMO, understood well by legislators) and you're probably not going to be bothered by authorities about it, I reckon sooner or later the law will come for federated networks. (Since we all seem fine just taking some uncertified random third party's word for it that their AI face recognition definitely didn't see a thumb with a face drawn on it, maybe it'd be adequate for Matrix.org to add an "18+ user" flag to the protocol and call it a day?)
direwolf20 9mo ago
The problem is that "simply" is a lie.
kuschku 9mo ago
Yes you can, and many have done so (including myself).

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

stevage 9mo ago

The Australian law doesn't care where servers are run. I don't know about others.

Zak 9mo ago
People without a physical or legal presence in Australia likely don't care what the Australian law cares about.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  Yeah that's the thing. No matter what you do, it's bound to be illegal somewhere in the world. Be it North Korea or Iran or Australia. You simply can't follow everyone's laws because they are often contradictory.
  - Bender 9mo ago
    ISIS cuts off hands for watching porn. They will have to cut through my porn induced callused skin using hydraulics.
    - ImJamal 9mo ago
      This is a bad example since you can just not watch porn. You wouldn't be violating the law anywhere since no country mandates you watch porn.
- Namidairo 9mo ago
  It did however deliver the hilarious quote "The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia", in regards to end-to-end encrypted messaging.[1] It went down as well as about you would think it would. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-end-end-encryption-ban-says-laws-mathematics-dont-apply-down https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/australian-pm-calls-en... (2017)
  - 9mo ago

fooqux 9mo ago

It's an interesting legal question, but I would imagine for a federated service, the burden of proof should be on the individual's home server for age verification. That's where the user account is, after all. Matrix is basically labeled "adults only" everywhere, so restricting certain servers/rooms due to possible innocent eyes is likely out of scope.

Zak 9mo ago

Matrix is a protocol, not a service. It's likely the UK government can enforce laws against content and accounts hosted on the matrix.org servers, but no single government has jurisdiction over the entire network.

Bender 9mo ago
Matrix is a protocol, not a service I thought it was both and their hosted service is in the UK. Is it not? I know people can host their own but I have had very little success in getting people to host their own things. Most here at HN will not do anything that requires more than their cell phone. Who knows maybe Discords actions will incentivize more people to self host.
- esseph 9mo ago
  > had very little success in getting people to host their own things. Most here at HN will not do anything that requires more than their cell phone. You're just talking to the wrong ones :-)
  - Bender 9mo ago
    You're just talking to the wrong ones :-) I do hope you are right. Governments have more than enough low hanging fruit to go snatch up and then pat themselves on the back.
- opan 9mo ago
  There's more than just the big flagship server and hosting your own. There are lots of small public servers you can sign up for, similar to email.
toomuchtodo 9mo ago
Like all global finance goes through NYC, they will find a throat to choke if motivated.
- xethos 9mo ago

Arathorn 9mo ago

I wrote the OP, so to try to clarify: > isn't Matrix based out of the UK and primary hosted instances on AWS in the UK? It doesn't matter what country you run your server in or where your company is based; if you're providing public signup to a chat server then the countries (UK, AU, NZ etc) which require age verification will object if you don't age verify the users from those countries. (This is why Discord is doing it, despite being US HQ'd). In other words, the fact that The Matrix.org Foundation happens to be UK HQ'd doesn't affect the situation particularly. (Edit: also, as others have pointed out, Matrix is a protocol, not a service or a product. The Matrix Foundation is effectively a standards body which happens to run the matrix.org server instance, but the jurisdiction that the standards body is incorporated in makes little difference - just like IETF being US-based doesn't mean the Internet is actually controlled by the US govt). > Their solution is for everyone to pay for Matrix with a credit card to verify age. Verifying users in affected countries based on owning a credit card is one solution we're proposing; suspect there will be other ways to do so too. However: this would only apply on the matrix.org server instance. Meanwhile, there are 23,306 other servers currently federating with matrix.org (out of a total of 156,055) - and those other servers, if they provide public signup, can figure out how to solve the problem in their own way. Also, the current plan on the matrix.org server is to only verify users who are in affected countries (as opposed to try to verify the whole userbase as Discord is).

Zak 9mo ago
> It doesn't matter what country you run your server in or where your company is based; if you're providing public signup to a chat server then the countries (UK, AU, NZ etc) which require age verification will object if you don't age verify the users from those countries. (This is why Discord is doing it, despite being US HQ'd). Whether it matters depends very much on what sort of organization you are. Discord is a multinational for-profit corporation planning an IPO. It takes payments from users in those countries, likely partners with companies in those countries, and likely wants to sell stock to investors in those countries. Every one of those countries has the ability to punish Discord if it does not obey their laws, even if it does not have a physical presence there. The situation is likely quite different for most of the 23,306 Matrix servers that federate widely. The worst thing Australia, for example could do to one of their operators is make it legally hazardous for them to visit Australia.