4 ms·

Because if you don't do what you are told at work, you may be forced to uproot your family, spouse, kids, and leave the country. You may be forced to abandon yo

by dheera 8mo ago

Because if you don't do what you are told at work, you may be forced to uproot your family, spouse, kids, and leave the country. You may be forced to abandon your pets and never see them again, forced to send your kids to suddenly school in a different, foreign-to-them language. You may be forced to pay tens of thousands in moving expenses. You may be forced to pay mortgages for a house you are not allowed to live in. All it takes is one unhappy manager at Amazon, or falling it the wrong bucket at stack ranking time. Or you can do what your manager asks you to do, over-deliver on it year after year, and you won't have to deal with the above. You may be unhappy with what you do at work, but your kids and spouse will live happy lives, and you can keep your pets and house. Sorry, just a dose of reality.

ajam1507 8mo ago
Grow a spine, you don't get a pass to do unethical things because your job depends on it.
- dheera 8mo ago
  Huh? Another dose of reality: I need to pay rent, pay medical bills, eat, and survive. As long as I'm dependent on an income to do that, I do whatever the employer wants as long as it's legal. When I'm financially free, I'll have the space to think about the ethics of my work. You want better? Fix the system so that I'm financially free earlier in life. Tax me less, charge me less rent, give me free healthcare, and let me save up cash for the rest of my life. When the system has delivered that OKR to me, I'll be able to put ethics first going forward. Until then, I still need to earn money to survive. I worked for Amazon for a couple years. Not on the above project, but nevertheless, I did what I was told. One of the reasons I went there was that I needed a surgery to replace my implanted defibrillator, which my life depends on, and (a) Amazon's sponsored health insurance would pay for it (b) Amazon's cash comp would be enough to hire lawyers to fight with insurance if necessary. Insurance companies usually pay what they're supposed to if there is a big tech HR behind it; they have a habit, in my experience, of not paying out what they're supposed to if they don't have something to fear. I was in startup land before, and often couldn't pay my medical bills (because insurance would cop out and not pay, and I didn't have money for lawyers to fight them) and had to forgo critical cardiac imaging procedures during that time.
  - blibble 8mo ago
    > I worked for Amazon for a couple years. why am I not surprised
  - int_19h 8mo ago
    Does it have to be that particular employer though?
    - dheera 8mo ago
      Not everyone has their pick of employers, especially during mass layoffs. I arguably joined the most ethical of the offers I actually got at the time. If you're against me joining an employer, maybe send me an alternative offer and then we can talk. Otherwise it is not constructive.
      - int_19h 8mo ago
        I'm currently unemployed myself because I didn't want to work for a big tech company that announced a public partnership with Palantir. I get the "family to feed" etc angle. But at some point we have to realize that this is not some kind of abstract moral dilemma, not when that software is actively hurting other people.
blibble 8mo ago
as a species, we are fucked if there's many people that fit your description your kids have to live on this earth too, and they'll suffer the consequences of cowardly people like that
- dheera 8mo ago
  > we are fucked if there's many people that fit your description The reality is 95% of people, especially outside the HN community, fit that description, that's why I wrote it. The number of people in the greater world who would put employer ethics before survival and livelihood of their family is vanishingly miniscule. Legal systems are how employers stay in check, not people caring about ethics.
caditinpiscinam 8mo ago
Wealth should be a source of power and agency, not an excuse for getting dogwalked. On the bright side, given that kids and houses and spouses are all becoming luxury items, there may be fewer people in the future who have to make that choice. "Learn to live on lentils, and you will not have to be subservient to the king"
- dheera 8mo ago
  > Wealth Working at Amazon isn't wealth. Wealth is not having to work in order to live. > Learn to live on lentils I'd rather not be vitamin deficient, even if it means being subservient to the king. Guarantee me health, food, water, shelter for life, and then maybe we can talk about the ethics of the king.

by dheera 8mo ago

ajam1507 8mo ago

Grow a spine, you don't get a pass to do unethical things because your job depends on it.

dheera 8mo ago
Huh? Another dose of reality: I need to pay rent, pay medical bills, eat, and survive. As long as I'm dependent on an income to do that, I do whatever the employer wants as long as it's legal. When I'm financially free, I'll have the space to think about the ethics of my work. You want better? Fix the system so that I'm financially free earlier in life. Tax me less, charge me less rent, give me free healthcare, and let me save up cash for the rest of my life. When the system has delivered that OKR to me, I'll be able to put ethics first going forward. Until then, I still need to earn money to survive. I worked for Amazon for a couple years. Not on the above project, but nevertheless, I did what I was told. One of the reasons I went there was that I needed a surgery to replace my implanted defibrillator, which my life depends on, and (a) Amazon's sponsored health insurance would pay for it (b) Amazon's cash comp would be enough to hire lawyers to fight with insurance if necessary. Insurance companies usually pay what they're supposed to if there is a big tech HR behind it; they have a habit, in my experience, of not paying out what they're supposed to if they don't have something to fear. I was in startup land before, and often couldn't pay my medical bills (because insurance would cop out and not pay, and I didn't have money for lawyers to fight them) and had to forgo critical cardiac imaging procedures during that time.
- blibble 8mo ago
  > I worked for Amazon for a couple years. why am I not surprised
- int_19h 8mo ago
  Does it have to be that particular employer though?
  - dheera 8mo ago
    Not everyone has their pick of employers, especially during mass layoffs. I arguably joined the most ethical of the offers I actually got at the time. If you're against me joining an employer, maybe send me an alternative offer and then we can talk. Otherwise it is not constructive.
    - int_19h 8mo ago
      I'm currently unemployed myself because I didn't want to work for a big tech company that announced a public partnership with Palantir. I get the "family to feed" etc angle. But at some point we have to realize that this is not some kind of abstract moral dilemma, not when that software is actively hurting other people.

blibble 8mo ago

as a species, we are fucked if there's many people that fit your description your kids have to live on this earth too, and they'll suffer the consequences of cowardly people like that

dheera 8mo ago
> we are fucked if there's many people that fit your description The reality is 95% of people, especially outside the HN community, fit that description, that's why I wrote it. The number of people in the greater world who would put employer ethics before survival and livelihood of their family is vanishingly miniscule. Legal systems are how employers stay in check, not people caring about ethics.

caditinpiscinam 8mo ago

Wealth should be a source of power and agency, not an excuse for getting dogwalked. On the bright side, given that kids and houses and spouses are all becoming luxury items, there may be fewer people in the future who have to make that choice. "Learn to live on lentils, and you will not have to be subservient to the king"

dheera 8mo ago
> Wealth Working at Amazon isn't wealth. Wealth is not having to work in order to live. > Learn to live on lentils I'd rather not be vitamin deficient, even if it means being subservient to the king. Guarantee me health, food, water, shelter for life, and then maybe we can talk about the ethics of the king.