3 ms·

>The film is emulating the type of film that would be produced by this fascist regime. There's no frame story to support this. Going by the available evidence

by mrob 8mo ago

>The film is emulating the type of film that would be produced by this fascist regime. There's no frame story to support this. Going by the available evidence in the movie itself, it's a conventional action movie.

slg 8mo ago
>There's no frame story to support this. There definitely is. No one on screen looks into camera and says this directly, but the whole recurring "Would you like to know more?" bit is supposed to tip the viewer off that what they're watching is a product of the government's propaganda efforts. I truly don't know how you can watch this [1] and conclude we're meant to fully trust them as the 100% honest truth. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM
- mrob 8mo ago
  The "would you like to know more" segments are inner nested stories. Those actually are presented as in-universe video, and qualify as epistolary narrative. But to claim that the movie as a whole is anti-fascist satire relies on the assertion that the whole movie is epistolary, which goes against the narrative conventions of film-making. Judging only by what we see on screen, we have to take it at face value. To do allow otherwise permits bizarre interpretations of any fiction you like, because you can always claim it's unreliable narration.
  - slg 8mo ago
    Why do you think those segments were included in the movie if it wasn't to get us to question the reliability of the narrative they're presenting?
    - mrob 8mo ago
      To differentiate between the potentially unreliable in-universe material and the conventional narrative of the rest. There's no on-screen evidence to justify a second level of nesting.
      - slg 8mo ago
        That confuses me because you seemingly aren't disagreeing with anything in the "unreliable in-universe material". The primary difference I see between those segments and the rest of the movie is simply tone.
        mrob 8mo ago
        The tone marks the difference between epistolary narration (which by convention may be unreliable) and omniscient narration (which by convention is always reliable). I'm well aware what Paul Verhoeven intended, but he failed at conveying that intention on the screen. What we actually see is a society that's more ethical than any real world society in times of war. If Verhoeven didn't want us to believe that then he shouldn't have used the omniscient narration of a conventional action movie. Any movie that relies on external sources to convey its message has failed as a movie.
        slg 8mo ago
        >I'm well aware what Paul Verhoeven intended, but he failed at conveying that intention on the screen. Poe's law suggests that what you're asking for is impossible, there will always be people unable to read sarcasm or parody. Knowing this, I believe Verhoeven included those "Would you like to know more?" segments as the equivalent of a ;-) or /s to indicate his intent. I'm sorry to be blunt, but obviously some of us were able to understand his message so attributing your own inability to see that message on a failure of Verhoeven and not yourself comes off as self-centered.
        mrob 8mo ago
        He could have introduced a second level of narrative nesting with a single title card at the beginning. Something like "United Citizen Federation presents: Heroes of the Bug Wars" would have made it clear. Lacking evidence to the contrary we have to assume it works like every other movie. Failing to provide this evidence when it would have been easy to do so is bad film-making.

by mrob 8mo ago

slg 8mo ago

>There's no frame story to support this. There definitely is. No one on screen looks into camera and says this directly, but the whole recurring "Would you like to know more?" bit is supposed to tip the viewer off that what they're watching is a product of the government's propaganda efforts. I truly don't know how you can watch this [1] and conclude we're meant to fully trust them as the 100% honest truth. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM

mrob 8mo ago
The "would you like to know more" segments are inner nested stories. Those actually are presented as in-universe video, and qualify as epistolary narrative. But to claim that the movie as a whole is anti-fascist satire relies on the assertion that the whole movie is epistolary, which goes against the narrative conventions of film-making. Judging only by what we see on screen, we have to take it at face value. To do allow otherwise permits bizarre interpretations of any fiction you like, because you can always claim it's unreliable narration.
- slg 8mo ago
  Why do you think those segments were included in the movie if it wasn't to get us to question the reliability of the narrative they're presenting?
  - mrob 8mo ago
    To differentiate between the potentially unreliable in-universe material and the conventional narrative of the rest. There's no on-screen evidence to justify a second level of nesting.
    - slg 8mo ago
      That confuses me because you seemingly aren't disagreeing with anything in the "unreliable in-universe material". The primary difference I see between those segments and the rest of the movie is simply tone.
      - mrob 8mo ago
        The tone marks the difference between epistolary narration (which by convention may be unreliable) and omniscient narration (which by convention is always reliable). I'm well aware what Paul Verhoeven intended, but he failed at conveying that intention on the screen. What we actually see is a society that's more ethical than any real world society in times of war. If Verhoeven didn't want us to believe that then he shouldn't have used the omniscient narration of a conventional action movie. Any movie that relies on external sources to convey its message has failed as a movie.
        slg 8mo ago
        >I'm well aware what Paul Verhoeven intended, but he failed at conveying that intention on the screen. Poe's law suggests that what you're asking for is impossible, there will always be people unable to read sarcasm or parody. Knowing this, I believe Verhoeven included those "Would you like to know more?" segments as the equivalent of a ;-) or /s to indicate his intent. I'm sorry to be blunt, but obviously some of us were able to understand his message so attributing your own inability to see that message on a failure of Verhoeven and not yourself comes off as self-centered.
        mrob 8mo ago
        He could have introduced a second level of narrative nesting with a single title card at the beginning. Something like "United Citizen Federation presents: Heroes of the Bug Wars" would have made it clear. Lacking evidence to the contrary we have to assume it works like every other movie. Failing to provide this evidence when it would have been easy to do so is bad film-making.