4 ms·

Starship Troopers (the movie) is a terrible example of satire because it fails to show anything substantially bad. When you present a society that's more ethica

by mrob 8mo ago

Starship Troopers (the movie) is a terrible example of satire because it fails to show anything substantially bad. When you present a society that's more ethical than real life, nobody's going to care if some people wear uniforms that look a bit like Nazi uniforms. There is a genuine existential risk, and it's addressed in the best way possible. Military slavery ("conscription") is more evil than disenfranchisement, especially when citizenship is not required to live a good life. Nobody is tricked or coerced into signing up for military service. Potential recruits are even shown disabled veterans to make the risk more salient. There are no signs of racism or sexism. Other objections are not supported by the film. There is no suggestion that the Buenos Aires attack is a false flag. I've seen people claim it's impossible for the bugs to do this, but it's a film featuring faster-than-light travel. The humans are already doing impossible things, so why can't the bugs? I've also heard complaints that there is no attempt at peace negotiations. There is no suggestion that peace is possible. It's possible among humans because most humans have a strong natural aversion to killing other humans. Real life armed forces have to go to great lengths to desensitize their troops to killing to prevent them from intentionally missing. But humans generally have no qualms about killing bugs, and the bugs in the movie never hesitate to kill humans. The movie is an inspiring story about people making the right choices in a difficult situation. Some people look at it objectively, and some only react to the aesthetics. Those who look objectively understand it's actually faithful to the spirit of the book despite Verhoeven not intending that.

hdgvhicv 8mo ago
The only hung I see about the asteroid was that Carmen’s collision (caused by her showing off) knocked the rock which caused it to hit Earth, where originally it may well have missed. Seems reasonable (although clearly not the intent of the story and not a deliberate “false flag”)
- kridsdale3 8mo ago
  I don't think the amount of ship that it touched imparted much of a momentum vector for a thing of that mass.
slg 8mo ago
This is all intentional. The film is emulating the type of film that would be produced by this fascist regime, of course it isn't going to include proof of the fascists being wrong. But we also don't see any evidence in support of their claims of an "existential threat" beyond the fascists claiming there is one. And since it's from the fascist perspective, the lack of evidence justifying their actions ends up supporting the idea that there is no real justification for their actions. The movie's goal is showing the attractiveness of fascism and showing that people like you are incredibly open to fascist ideologies as long as the fascists have a scary "other" to put forward as an existential threat regardless of how real that threat truly is.
- mrob 8mo ago
  >The film is emulating the type of film that would be produced by this fascist regime. There's no frame story to support this. Going by the available evidence in the movie itself, it's a conventional action movie.
  - slg 8mo ago
    >There's no frame story to support this. There definitely is. No one on screen looks into camera and says this directly, but the whole recurring "Would you like to know more?" bit is supposed to tip the viewer off that what they're watching is a product of the government's propaganda efforts. I truly don't know how you can watch this [1] and conclude we're meant to fully trust them as the 100% honest truth. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM
    - mrob 8mo ago
      The "would you like to know more" segments are inner nested stories. Those actually are presented as in-universe video, and qualify as epistolary narrative. But to claim that the movie as a whole is anti-fascist satire relies on the assertion that the whole movie is epistolary, which goes against the narrative conventions of film-making. Judging only by what we see on screen, we have to take it at face value. To do allow otherwise permits bizarre interpretations of any fiction you like, because you can always claim it's unreliable narration.
542354234235 8mo ago
>There is a genuine existential risk The Mormon missionaries settled on a bug planet. Human's attempting to colonize worlds already inhabited and getting killed is not an existential risk or threat. Choosing to go and exterminate the local population in response is not defense. Assuming the Buenos Aires attack is from the bugs, it only happened after humans invaded multiple bug worlds. Since the bugs never seem to attempt to invade any human worlds, peace could have happened by just leaving the bugs alone and not attempting to take worlds from them. Paul Verhoeven grew up during WWII, so the idea of fascists exterminating the native population to make room, or Lebensraum, isn’t exactly a crazy idea.
- mrob 8mo ago
  >Choosing to go and exterminate the local population in response is not defense. The Mormons were not the United Citizen Federation, they were an independent group. The bugs indiscriminately attacked all humans in response. >exterminating the native population to make room The problem with this comparison is the bugs aren't humans. Extending human-like moral weight to even non-human mammals is a rare idea (most people aren't vegans). Extending it to non-mammals is even more rare (most vegans don't care about the insects killed in farming). Extending it to literally alien bugs, that don't even share the evolutionary history of Earth bugs with us, is an incredibly niche idea. And this situation is symmetrical, so the alien bugs almost certainly have the same attitude toward humans. There's no reason to think that peaceful coexistence is possible.
  - aziaziazi 8mo ago
    Let me give others perpectives: > Extending human-like moral weight to even non-human mammals is a rare idea It's actually pretty frequent to demonstrate deep empathy and give more importance to pets that to unrelated humans. Some also argue that humans can be morally inferior to others. Drawing a line between human and non-humans may be tempting but the opinons down there are very diverse. Just a few years back and a common agreement would be "Extending white-like moral weight to even non-white..." > most vegans don't care about the insects killed in farming Of course they do! But found out it's the compromise with the lowest externalities. Most meat eater also don't like slaughterhouses but think it's a necessity. > Extending it to literally alien bugs [...] is an incredibly niche idea I bet if humanity do encounter alien bugs, this idea will be way more discussed. Moral is often somewhat put aside when engaging a fiction: Starship Troopers or Happy Tree Friends are perfect exemple. Most would's joke about that if that was real.

by mrob 8mo ago

hdgvhicv 8mo ago

The only hung I see about the asteroid was that Carmen’s collision (caused by her showing off) knocked the rock which caused it to hit Earth, where originally it may well have missed. Seems reasonable (although clearly not the intent of the story and not a deliberate “false flag”)

kridsdale3 8mo ago
I don't think the amount of ship that it touched imparted much of a momentum vector for a thing of that mass.

slg 8mo ago

This is all intentional. The film is emulating the type of film that would be produced by this fascist regime, of course it isn't going to include proof of the fascists being wrong. But we also don't see any evidence in support of their claims of an "existential threat" beyond the fascists claiming there is one. And since it's from the fascist perspective, the lack of evidence justifying their actions ends up supporting the idea that there is no real justification for their actions. The movie's goal is showing the attractiveness of fascism and showing that people like you are incredibly open to fascist ideologies as long as the fascists have a scary "other" to put forward as an existential threat regardless of how real that threat truly is.

mrob 8mo ago
>The film is emulating the type of film that would be produced by this fascist regime. There's no frame story to support this. Going by the available evidence in the movie itself, it's a conventional action movie.
- slg 8mo ago
  >There's no frame story to support this. There definitely is. No one on screen looks into camera and says this directly, but the whole recurring "Would you like to know more?" bit is supposed to tip the viewer off that what they're watching is a product of the government's propaganda efforts. I truly don't know how you can watch this [1] and conclude we're meant to fully trust them as the 100% honest truth. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cktmS-yaxM
  - mrob 8mo ago
    The "would you like to know more" segments are inner nested stories. Those actually are presented as in-universe video, and qualify as epistolary narrative. But to claim that the movie as a whole is anti-fascist satire relies on the assertion that the whole movie is epistolary, which goes against the narrative conventions of film-making. Judging only by what we see on screen, we have to take it at face value. To do allow otherwise permits bizarre interpretations of any fiction you like, because you can always claim it's unreliable narration.

542354234235 8mo ago

>There is a genuine existential risk The Mormon missionaries settled on a bug planet. Human's attempting to colonize worlds already inhabited and getting killed is not an existential risk or threat. Choosing to go and exterminate the local population in response is not defense. Assuming the Buenos Aires attack is from the bugs, it only happened after humans invaded multiple bug worlds. Since the bugs never seem to attempt to invade any human worlds, peace could have happened by just leaving the bugs alone and not attempting to take worlds from them. Paul Verhoeven grew up during WWII, so the idea of fascists exterminating the native population to make room, or Lebensraum, isn’t exactly a crazy idea.

mrob 8mo ago
>Choosing to go and exterminate the local population in response is not defense. The Mormons were not the United Citizen Federation, they were an independent group. The bugs indiscriminately attacked all humans in response. >exterminating the native population to make room The problem with this comparison is the bugs aren't humans. Extending human-like moral weight to even non-human mammals is a rare idea (most people aren't vegans). Extending it to non-mammals is even more rare (most vegans don't care about the insects killed in farming). Extending it to literally alien bugs, that don't even share the evolutionary history of Earth bugs with us, is an incredibly niche idea. And this situation is symmetrical, so the alien bugs almost certainly have the same attitude toward humans. There's no reason to think that peaceful coexistence is possible.
- aziaziazi 8mo ago
  Let me give others perpectives: > Extending human-like moral weight to even non-human mammals is a rare idea It's actually pretty frequent to demonstrate deep empathy and give more importance to pets that to unrelated humans. Some also argue that humans can be morally inferior to others. Drawing a line between human and non-humans may be tempting but the opinons down there are very diverse. Just a few years back and a common agreement would be "Extending white-like moral weight to even non-white..." > most vegans don't care about the insects killed in farming Of course they do! But found out it's the compromise with the lowest externalities. Most meat eater also don't like slaughterhouses but think it's a necessity. > Extending it to literally alien bugs [...] is an incredibly niche idea I bet if humanity do encounter alien bugs, this idea will be way more discussed. Moral is often somewhat put aside when engaging a fiction: Starship Troopers or Happy Tree Friends are perfect exemple. Most would's joke about that if that was real.