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CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Just obviously not near the coast. For some reason many Americans forget that most of America is not in San Fran

CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Just obviously not near the coast. For some reason many Americans forget that most of America is not in San Francisco.

showerst 8mo ago
I'd argue that QoL in middle America is not great compared to similarly priced places in the EU. Americans have worse health outcomes (including lifespan), travel far less and have less time off, and retire later. That said, you do get much more space, nicer housing stock, (arguably) better access to education, and generally more 'stuff', so it's a tradeoff.
- michaelmrose 8mo ago
  The education is available to those who don't live here. The more "stuff" is not a fair trade for anything else mentioned.
  - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
    Yeah. Education is absolutely broken.
- trimethylpurine 8mo ago
  I live a few months out of each year in Europe. Usually max out my 90 day stay with ABnB. It's a hard life in Europe. My friend owns 11 bars that are packed 24/7 on a Mediterranean shoreline. He is what anyone would call successful. But he lives in a little apartment and drives a beat up old Mercedes, not because he's modest but because that's what "rich" looks like in Europe. If you ask him, he'll tell you that taxes ensure that you can never be rich in Europe. My friend in middle America owns one bar, multiple houses, multiple cars, kids in private school. And what's mind blowing is that no one in America would consider him "rich." That's just middle class America. I'd love to visit wherever you're going to point to as a counter example. Let me know where I'm headed this summer. Btw I checked about health outcomes. It's actually only true if you look at America as an average. Middle America has much better health outcomes. Look at Utah for example. Again, point was that middle America isn't like the coasts.
  - laurencerowe 8mo ago
    It's true that non-coastal Utah, Colorado, and Minnesota have good life expectancy for the US but they lag behind California, New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expectancy/index_2022.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expec... Utah is 1.7 years behind the EU average. Even Hawaii with the highest life expectancy in the US is behind all but the former Eastern Block EU countries. https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/europe-developed-countries/life-expectancy/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.... (Archive link to get comparable 2022 data.)
    - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
      Sounds about right. I'm surprised by California. Nice. But I bet healthcare costs are way higher there. To match with higher income, I guess.
      - laurencerowe 8mo ago
        Median income is not much lower in Utah than in California. Utah's low healthcare spending per capita is likely a reflection of Utah having the lowest median age of any state. Most healthcare costs are spent on elderly people. I should add though that life expectancy is affected at least as much by social policy as by healthcare spending. Much of the difference is a result of cars/guns/drugs killing more people earlier in life in the US than in Europe.
        trimethylpurine 8mo ago
        Doesn't seem like big correlation in this case. Violent crime rate is roughly double in California compared with Utah.
        laurencerowe 8mo ago
        While Utah has a lower homicide rate than California (2.2 vs 5.1 per 100k) like many rural states it has a much higher suicide rate (21.5 vs 10.1 per 100k). Accident mortality (mostly overdoses and car accidents) are similar (49.7 vs 51.1 per 100k). https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/homicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/homicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/suicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/suicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/accidents.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/accidents.html More on the drivers of lower life expectancy in US here: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/what-drives-differences-in-life-expectancy-between-the-u-s-and-comparable-countries/ https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/what-dr...
mmooss 8mo ago
> CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Compared to where? What is that based on? The strong public sentiment, determining elections, is that the US is unaffordable. People work multiple jobs and can't afford health care, housing, education, or even food.
- trimethylpurine 8mo ago
  Well, compared to San Francisco, was my point. But you can look at random places like Tel Aviv, or London, or Milan. CoL is high in big cities around the world. How about South Dakota vs the UK. >The strong public sentiment That's everywhere in the world. Of course, politicians are catering to what everyone complains about. But objectively, healthcare is better than it ever has been in the history of the world in every country in the world, including the US. Right? So you're right, it determines elections. But it shouldn't. That's really what I'm trying to say.
jfim 8mo ago
It depends what you include in cost of living. Healthcare and education tend to be more expensive than other first world countries, and the taxes are high given the fact that healthcare and education aren't part of what one gets from paying taxes.
- trimethylpurine 8mo ago
  Depends which state. I pay less for healthcare in the US than my friends in Europe when we break down the tax costs and private supplemental care that's necessary in Europe. In fact, I pay their private health care costs myself because I don't want to wait a year for them to get shoulder surgery in the "free" health care system that's clearly not free.
laurencerowe 8mo ago
Quality of life is very subjective though. Few American cities offer the kind of walkable lifestyles those of us who moved from Europe took for granted. San Francisco is one of the few places that can offer that, though even then I spent most of my career here driving out to Silicon Valley's suburban office parks. At least I could always walk to the supermarket, bars, restaurants, and cafes in my neighbourhood. If you value a big house and are content to drive for all your errands most of the US is set up for that.
- trimethylpurine 8mo ago
  You're right, the cost is significantly higher than Europe to live in walkable type developments in the US. I prefer to drive places, myself. Carrying stuff home and shopping daily wasn't a highlight for my time in Europe. It takes so much time.

CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Just obviously not near the coast. For some reason many Americans forget that most of America is not in San Francisco.

showerst 8mo ago

I'd argue that QoL in middle America is not great compared to similarly priced places in the EU. Americans have worse health outcomes (including lifespan), travel far less and have less time off, and retire later. That said, you do get much more space, nicer housing stock, (arguably) better access to education, and generally more 'stuff', so it's a tradeoff.

michaelmrose 8mo ago
The education is available to those who don't live here. The more "stuff" is not a fair trade for anything else mentioned.
- trimethylpurine 8mo ago
  Yeah. Education is absolutely broken.
trimethylpurine 8mo ago
I live a few months out of each year in Europe. Usually max out my 90 day stay with ABnB. It's a hard life in Europe. My friend owns 11 bars that are packed 24/7 on a Mediterranean shoreline. He is what anyone would call successful. But he lives in a little apartment and drives a beat up old Mercedes, not because he's modest but because that's what "rich" looks like in Europe. If you ask him, he'll tell you that taxes ensure that you can never be rich in Europe. My friend in middle America owns one bar, multiple houses, multiple cars, kids in private school. And what's mind blowing is that no one in America would consider him "rich." That's just middle class America. I'd love to visit wherever you're going to point to as a counter example. Let me know where I'm headed this summer. Btw I checked about health outcomes. It's actually only true if you look at America as an average. Middle America has much better health outcomes. Look at Utah for example. Again, point was that middle America isn't like the coasts.
- laurencerowe 8mo ago
  It's true that non-coastal Utah, Colorado, and Minnesota have good life expectancy for the US but they lag behind California, New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expectancy/index_2022.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data-visualization/state-life-expec... Utah is 1.7 years behind the EU average. Even Hawaii with the highest life expectancy in the US is behind all but the former Eastern Block EU countries. https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/europe-developed-countries/life-expectancy/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240324032202/https://www.ined.... (Archive link to get comparable 2022 data.)
  - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
    Sounds about right. I'm surprised by California. Nice. But I bet healthcare costs are way higher there. To match with higher income, I guess.
    - laurencerowe 8mo ago
      Median income is not much lower in Utah than in California. Utah's low healthcare spending per capita is likely a reflection of Utah having the lowest median age of any state. Most healthcare costs are spent on elderly people. I should add though that life expectancy is affected at least as much by social policy as by healthcare spending. Much of the difference is a result of cars/guns/drugs killing more people earlier in life in the US than in Europe.
      - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
        Doesn't seem like big correlation in this case. Violent crime rate is roughly double in California compared with Utah.
        laurencerowe 8mo ago
        While Utah has a lower homicide rate than California (2.2 vs 5.1 per 100k) like many rural states it has a much higher suicide rate (21.5 vs 10.1 per 100k). Accident mortality (mostly overdoses and car accidents) are similar (49.7 vs 51.1 per 100k). https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/homicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/homicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/suicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/suicide.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/accidents.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/state-stats/deaths/accidents.html More on the drivers of lower life expectancy in US here: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/what-drives-differences-in-life-expectancy-between-the-u-s-and-comparable-countries/ https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/what-dr...

mmooss 8mo ago

> CoL is very low in the US and QoL is very good. Compared to where? What is that based on? The strong public sentiment, determining elections, is that the US is unaffordable. People work multiple jobs and can't afford health care, housing, education, or even food.

trimethylpurine 8mo ago
Well, compared to San Francisco, was my point. But you can look at random places like Tel Aviv, or London, or Milan. CoL is high in big cities around the world. How about South Dakota vs the UK. >The strong public sentiment That's everywhere in the world. Of course, politicians are catering to what everyone complains about. But objectively, healthcare is better than it ever has been in the history of the world in every country in the world, including the US. Right? So you're right, it determines elections. But it shouldn't. That's really what I'm trying to say.

jfim 8mo ago

It depends what you include in cost of living. Healthcare and education tend to be more expensive than other first world countries, and the taxes are high given the fact that healthcare and education aren't part of what one gets from paying taxes.

trimethylpurine 8mo ago
Depends which state. I pay less for healthcare in the US than my friends in Europe when we break down the tax costs and private supplemental care that's necessary in Europe. In fact, I pay their private health care costs myself because I don't want to wait a year for them to get shoulder surgery in the "free" health care system that's clearly not free.

laurencerowe 8mo ago

Quality of life is very subjective though. Few American cities offer the kind of walkable lifestyles those of us who moved from Europe took for granted. San Francisco is one of the few places that can offer that, though even then I spent most of my career here driving out to Silicon Valley's suburban office parks. At least I could always walk to the supermarket, bars, restaurants, and cafes in my neighbourhood. If you value a big house and are content to drive for all your errands most of the US is set up for that.

trimethylpurine 8mo ago
You're right, the cost is significantly higher than Europe to live in walkable type developments in the US. I prefer to drive places, myself. Carrying stuff home and shopping daily wasn't a highlight for my time in Europe. It takes so much time.