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I believe if you’re using hexane to extract the vegetable oils it should definitely be called artificial. A highly artificial substance was added to the food at

I believe if you’re using hexane to extract the vegetable oils it should definitely be called artificial. A highly artificial substance was added to the food at some point. Lye is typically not artificial if it’s made from sea shells and wood ash like it has been traditionally. Even the industrial chlor-alkali process just uses salt (NaCl) and water so it’s not artificial.

IAmBroom 9mo ago
To point out how confusing this is: If you add a knife tip to a cow carcass to extract the steak, that is adding a highly artificial substance to the food at some point. Likewise if you use steel balls to tumble-crush shells into calcium carbonate powder (don't know if they do, or if it's even a product, but neither are the point here). "We are required to inform this table that your naturally wild-caught salmon had, briefly, at one time, a small hook inserted into its mouth. It was otherwise wholly without artificial feed nor other additives." How do you write a law that slices between those ideas and hexane, clearly?
- dyauspitr 9mo ago
  On a case by case basis that generally aligns with common sense. Most people can instantly recognize a hook and knife are very different from adding a solvent to food. Drug laws are a good analog for this. I don’t think the universe of possibilities in this space is prohibitively large. You can probably begin by broadly calling petroleum and petroleum products artificial.
  - SPICLK2 9mo ago
    There's a rich heritage and history of solvent-based foods. Vanilla essence, sloe gin, etc.
    - dyauspitr 9mo ago
      Ethanol would probably be classified as a natural solvent. The edge cases fall off very quickly, this can definitely be done on case by case basis without introducing onerous bureaucracy.
      - SPICLK2 9mo ago
        Even if it were distilled from petroleum?
        dyauspitr 9mo ago
        Ethanol is not distilled from petroleum. Industrially it is produced by distilling plant sugars and starches.
        SPICLK2 9mo ago
        It can be distilled from petroleum, and there is the key distinction that wasn't answered - are "natural" ingredients ones that could be made by "natural" (I'm assuming that "biochemical" is meant here) processes, or are they ones that are made by "natural" processes? Or is it just petroleum that is the problem? Where does salt fall here? Why isn't petroleum natural, when it is plant-based?
        dyauspitr 9mo ago
        A good starting point would be to broadly classify petroleum and its products as artificial.
        SPICLK2 9mo ago
        Apologies for so many questions, this is a very interesting line of reasoning. What makes petroleum artificial compared to any other substance found on (or in) earth? It seems you are proposing that "any food that has had a petroleum product added to it at any stage is artificial", which is an oddly narrow focus. For that matter, does this definition of "artificial" extend to the range of substances that can be synthesized with bio-feedstock? To expand on our discussion, would this mean that ethanol made other feedstock is natural, but made from petroleum is artificial?
gruez 9mo ago
>Lye is typically not artificial if it’s made from sea shells and wood ash like it has been traditionally. There's approximately 0% chance that the typical pretzel you bought is made with dye derived from wood ash.
- dyauspitr 9mo ago
  Well yeah but I addressed how it’s made industrially as well.
  - gruez 9mo ago
    >Even the industrial chlor-alkali process just uses salt (NaCl) and water so it’s not artificial. By that standard is anything artificial? Oil comes out of the ground, after all. At least with "natural" colors you can argue the actual molecule was synthesized by a plant and we're just purifying it, whereas for industrially produced lye it's entirely man made.
    - dyauspitr 9mo ago
      Salt and water are pretty “natural”. You can get pedantic about this but there is enough here to classify these on a case by case basis.
SPICLK2 9mo ago
Can you define a "highly artifical substance" in this context? As you desctibe it, it seems to be "a subtance that can't be made entirely from feedstock that was once living".

IAmBroom 9mo ago

To point out how confusing this is: If you add a knife tip to a cow carcass to extract the steak, that is adding a highly artificial substance to the food at some point. Likewise if you use steel balls to tumble-crush shells into calcium carbonate powder (don't know if they do, or if it's even a product, but neither are the point here). "We are required to inform this table that your naturally wild-caught salmon had, briefly, at one time, a small hook inserted into its mouth. It was otherwise wholly without artificial feed nor other additives." How do you write a law that slices between those ideas and hexane, clearly?

dyauspitr 9mo ago
On a case by case basis that generally aligns with common sense. Most people can instantly recognize a hook and knife are very different from adding a solvent to food. Drug laws are a good analog for this. I don’t think the universe of possibilities in this space is prohibitively large. You can probably begin by broadly calling petroleum and petroleum products artificial.
- SPICLK2 9mo ago
  There's a rich heritage and history of solvent-based foods. Vanilla essence, sloe gin, etc.
  - dyauspitr 9mo ago
    Ethanol would probably be classified as a natural solvent. The edge cases fall off very quickly, this can definitely be done on case by case basis without introducing onerous bureaucracy.
    - SPICLK2 9mo ago
      Even if it were distilled from petroleum?
      - dyauspitr 9mo ago
        Ethanol is not distilled from petroleum. Industrially it is produced by distilling plant sugars and starches.
        SPICLK2 9mo ago
        It can be distilled from petroleum, and there is the key distinction that wasn't answered - are "natural" ingredients ones that could be made by "natural" (I'm assuming that "biochemical" is meant here) processes, or are they ones that are made by "natural" processes? Or is it just petroleum that is the problem? Where does salt fall here? Why isn't petroleum natural, when it is plant-based?
        dyauspitr 9mo ago
        A good starting point would be to broadly classify petroleum and its products as artificial.
        SPICLK2 9mo ago
        Apologies for so many questions, this is a very interesting line of reasoning. What makes petroleum artificial compared to any other substance found on (or in) earth? It seems you are proposing that "any food that has had a petroleum product added to it at any stage is artificial", which is an oddly narrow focus. For that matter, does this definition of "artificial" extend to the range of substances that can be synthesized with bio-feedstock? To expand on our discussion, would this mean that ethanol made other feedstock is natural, but made from petroleum is artificial?

gruez 9mo ago

>Lye is typically not artificial if it’s made from sea shells and wood ash like it has been traditionally. There's approximately 0% chance that the typical pretzel you bought is made with dye derived from wood ash.

dyauspitr 9mo ago
Well yeah but I addressed how it’s made industrially as well.
- gruez 9mo ago
  >Even the industrial chlor-alkali process just uses salt (NaCl) and water so it’s not artificial. By that standard is anything artificial? Oil comes out of the ground, after all. At least with "natural" colors you can argue the actual molecule was synthesized by a plant and we're just purifying it, whereas for industrially produced lye it's entirely man made.
  - dyauspitr 9mo ago
    Salt and water are pretty “natural”. You can get pedantic about this but there is enough here to classify these on a case by case basis.

SPICLK2 9mo ago

Can you define a "highly artifical substance" in this context? As you desctibe it, it seems to be "a subtance that can't be made entirely from feedstock that was once living".