4 ms·

That is not what this is about. You've always been able to advertise rice with turmeric as free from artificial colors. Here, the FDA is allowing for so-called

by elil17 8mo ago

That is not what this is about. You've always been able to advertise rice with turmeric as free from artificial colors. Here, the FDA is allowing for so-called natural dyes which are just chemicals that have been extracted from plants (usually through solvents). Imagine taking the turmeric, soaking it in gasoline, then distilling the color back out of the gasoline. The only requirement is that the color itself is not petroleum-derived.

gruez 8mo ago
>Here, the FDA is allowing for so-called natural dyes which are just chemicals that have been extracted from plants (usually through solvents). Imagine taking the turmeric, soaking it in gasoline, then distilling the color back out of the gasoline. That's basically what's done for vegetable oils so should vegetable oils be called "artificial" as well? Is there a principled way of defining what amount of scary chemical involvement is needed for something natural to lose its "natural" designation? Are pretzels at risk because they're dipped in lye (ie. drain cleaners)?
- devin 8mo ago
  I don't know the answer to your question, but it would seem no one involved in this decision making process is even trying.
- dyauspitr 8mo ago
  I believe if you’re using hexane to extract the vegetable oils it should definitely be called artificial. A highly artificial substance was added to the food at some point. Lye is typically not artificial if it’s made from sea shells and wood ash like it has been traditionally. Even the industrial chlor-alkali process just uses salt (NaCl) and water so it’s not artificial.
  - IAmBroom 8mo ago
    To point out how confusing this is: If you add a knife tip to a cow carcass to extract the steak, that is adding a highly artificial substance to the food at some point. Likewise if you use steel balls to tumble-crush shells into calcium carbonate powder (don't know if they do, or if it's even a product, but neither are the point here). "We are required to inform this table that your naturally wild-caught salmon had, briefly, at one time, a small hook inserted into its mouth. It was otherwise wholly without artificial feed nor other additives." How do you write a law that slices between those ideas and hexane, clearly?
    - dyauspitr 8mo ago
      On a case by case basis that generally aligns with common sense. Most people can instantly recognize a hook and knife are very different from adding a solvent to food. Drug laws are a good analog for this. I don’t think the universe of possibilities in this space is prohibitively large. You can probably begin by broadly calling petroleum and petroleum products artificial.
      - SPICLK2 8mo ago
        There's a rich heritage and history of solvent-based foods. Vanilla essence, sloe gin, etc.
        dyauspitr 8mo ago
        Ethanol would probably be classified as a natural solvent. The edge cases fall off very quickly, this can definitely be done on case by case basis without introducing onerous bureaucracy.
        SPICLK2 8mo ago
        Even if it were distilled from petroleum?
        dyauspitr 8mo ago
        Ethanol is not distilled from petroleum. Industrially it is produced by distilling plant sugars and starches.
        SPICLK2 8mo ago
        It can be distilled from petroleum, and there is the key distinction that wasn't answered - are "natural" ingredients ones that could be made by "natural" (I'm assuming that "biochemical" is meant here) processes, or are they ones that are made by "natural" processes? Or is it just petroleum that is the problem? Where does salt fall here? Why isn't petroleum natural, when it is plant-based?
  - gruez 8mo ago
    >Lye is typically not artificial if it’s made from sea shells and wood ash like it has been traditionally. There's approximately 0% chance that the typical pretzel you bought is made with dye derived from wood ash.
    - dyauspitr 8mo ago
      Well yeah but I addressed how it’s made industrially as well.
      - gruez 8mo ago
        >Even the industrial chlor-alkali process just uses salt (NaCl) and water so it’s not artificial. By that standard is anything artificial? Oil comes out of the ground, after all. At least with "natural" colors you can argue the actual molecule was synthesized by a plant and we're just purifying it, whereas for industrially produced lye it's entirely man made.
        dyauspitr 8mo ago
        Salt and water are pretty “natural”. You can get pedantic about this but there is enough here to classify these on a case by case basis.
  - SPICLK2 8mo ago
    Can you define a "highly artifical substance" in this context? As you desctibe it, it seems to be "a subtance that can't be made entirely from feedstock that was once living".
- mrguyorama 8mo ago
  Why is a solvent that is part of processing but nonexistent in the final product something that anyone should care about? Your body cannot tell the difference between a chemical that is "naturally" sourced vs one that is "artificially" sourced. We are at a point in industrial chemistry that the sole difference is "Did the feedstock come from a petrochemical company"
  - gruez 8mo ago
    >Why is a solvent that is part of processing but nonexistent in the final product something that anyone should care about? That's exactly my point, because I'm arguing there's no difference between natural colors and vegetable oil, when they're both refined from natural sources using industrial processes.
- elil17 8mo ago
  Well I don't think there's anything dangerous about artificial or natural dyes. I certainly don't think you should have to put a warning label saying "dyes extracted with gasoline" on products using natural dyes. At the same time, you shouldn't be able to lie to consumers (even if what those consumers care about is wrong and dumb)! You shouldn't be able to label with "This milk from cows not treated with rBST" if you did in fact treat the cows with rBST, even though rBST is not a health risk. Likewise, you shouldn't be able to say "my product is completely natural" when it is in fact produced through chemical synthesis.
jbstack 8mo ago
Where's the boundary between "natural" and "artificial"? If we're allowing processing in the definition of "natural" (e.g. extracting a chemical from a plant using a solvent) then everything is natural: it's all ultimately derived from something that naturally occurred on Earth.
SPICLK2 8mo ago
Tumeric is a chemical that has been extracted from plants! Your scenario holds for any part of any food processing, not just food colours. The issue is that the definition of "natural" when applied to food is impossible to pin down. Can we process using solvents? What if those solvents were brewed? At what point does heat and pressure treatment become "unnatural"? Can I use an acid for processing? Can I use vinegar? The various vegetable, seed and nut oils that form the basis for so many food products are very problematic if you want "natural" food.

by elil17 8mo ago

gruez 8mo ago

>Here, the FDA is allowing for so-called natural dyes which are just chemicals that have been extracted from plants (usually through solvents). Imagine taking the turmeric, soaking it in gasoline, then distilling the color back out of the gasoline. That's basically what's done for vegetable oils so should vegetable oils be called "artificial" as well? Is there a principled way of defining what amount of scary chemical involvement is needed for something natural to lose its "natural" designation? Are pretzels at risk because they're dipped in lye (ie. drain cleaners)?

devin 8mo ago
I don't know the answer to your question, but it would seem no one involved in this decision making process is even trying.
dyauspitr 8mo ago
I believe if you’re using hexane to extract the vegetable oils it should definitely be called artificial. A highly artificial substance was added to the food at some point. Lye is typically not artificial if it’s made from sea shells and wood ash like it has been traditionally. Even the industrial chlor-alkali process just uses salt (NaCl) and water so it’s not artificial.
- IAmBroom 8mo ago
  To point out how confusing this is: If you add a knife tip to a cow carcass to extract the steak, that is adding a highly artificial substance to the food at some point. Likewise if you use steel balls to tumble-crush shells into calcium carbonate powder (don't know if they do, or if it's even a product, but neither are the point here). "We are required to inform this table that your naturally wild-caught salmon had, briefly, at one time, a small hook inserted into its mouth. It was otherwise wholly without artificial feed nor other additives." How do you write a law that slices between those ideas and hexane, clearly?
  - dyauspitr 8mo ago
    On a case by case basis that generally aligns with common sense. Most people can instantly recognize a hook and knife are very different from adding a solvent to food. Drug laws are a good analog for this. I don’t think the universe of possibilities in this space is prohibitively large. You can probably begin by broadly calling petroleum and petroleum products artificial.
    - SPICLK2 8mo ago
      There's a rich heritage and history of solvent-based foods. Vanilla essence, sloe gin, etc.
      - dyauspitr 8mo ago
        Ethanol would probably be classified as a natural solvent. The edge cases fall off very quickly, this can definitely be done on case by case basis without introducing onerous bureaucracy.
        SPICLK2 8mo ago
        Even if it were distilled from petroleum?
        dyauspitr 8mo ago
        Ethanol is not distilled from petroleum. Industrially it is produced by distilling plant sugars and starches.
        SPICLK2 8mo ago
        It can be distilled from petroleum, and there is the key distinction that wasn't answered - are "natural" ingredients ones that could be made by "natural" (I'm assuming that "biochemical" is meant here) processes, or are they ones that are made by "natural" processes? Or is it just petroleum that is the problem? Where does salt fall here? Why isn't petroleum natural, when it is plant-based?
- gruez 8mo ago
  >Lye is typically not artificial if it’s made from sea shells and wood ash like it has been traditionally. There's approximately 0% chance that the typical pretzel you bought is made with dye derived from wood ash.
  - dyauspitr 8mo ago
    Well yeah but I addressed how it’s made industrially as well.
    - gruez 8mo ago
      >Even the industrial chlor-alkali process just uses salt (NaCl) and water so it’s not artificial. By that standard is anything artificial? Oil comes out of the ground, after all. At least with "natural" colors you can argue the actual molecule was synthesized by a plant and we're just purifying it, whereas for industrially produced lye it's entirely man made.
      - dyauspitr 8mo ago
        Salt and water are pretty “natural”. You can get pedantic about this but there is enough here to classify these on a case by case basis.
- SPICLK2 8mo ago
  Can you define a "highly artifical substance" in this context? As you desctibe it, it seems to be "a subtance that can't be made entirely from feedstock that was once living".
mrguyorama 8mo ago
Why is a solvent that is part of processing but nonexistent in the final product something that anyone should care about? Your body cannot tell the difference between a chemical that is "naturally" sourced vs one that is "artificially" sourced. We are at a point in industrial chemistry that the sole difference is "Did the feedstock come from a petrochemical company"
- gruez 8mo ago
  >Why is a solvent that is part of processing but nonexistent in the final product something that anyone should care about? That's exactly my point, because I'm arguing there's no difference between natural colors and vegetable oil, when they're both refined from natural sources using industrial processes.
elil17 8mo ago
Well I don't think there's anything dangerous about artificial or natural dyes. I certainly don't think you should have to put a warning label saying "dyes extracted with gasoline" on products using natural dyes. At the same time, you shouldn't be able to lie to consumers (even if what those consumers care about is wrong and dumb)! You shouldn't be able to label with "This milk from cows not treated with rBST" if you did in fact treat the cows with rBST, even though rBST is not a health risk. Likewise, you shouldn't be able to say "my product is completely natural" when it is in fact produced through chemical synthesis.

jbstack 8mo ago

Where's the boundary between "natural" and "artificial"? If we're allowing processing in the definition of "natural" (e.g. extracting a chemical from a plant using a solvent) then everything is natural: it's all ultimately derived from something that naturally occurred on Earth.

SPICLK2 8mo ago

Tumeric is a chemical that has been extracted from plants! Your scenario holds for any part of any food processing, not just food colours. The issue is that the definition of "natural" when applied to food is impossible to pin down. Can we process using solvents? What if those solvents were brewed? At what point does heat and pressure treatment become "unnatural"? Can I use an acid for processing? Can I use vinegar? The various vegetable, seed and nut oils that form the basis for so many food products are very problematic if you want "natural" food.