5 ms·

1) In the 30's more people owned gold. Now people are dishoarding gold (cash4gold). Going after gold hoarders won't yield much. Also no one in the 30's went to

1) In the 30's more people owned gold. Now people are dishoarding gold (cash4gold). Going after gold hoarders won't yield much. Also no one in the 30's went to jail. 2) Coins from a reputable mint are pretty easy. The tungsten forgeries are only cost effective for the bigger bars 3) If you purchase coins then they can be redeemed for the currency of the day at under the radar levels. I don't see why I should pay tax when trying to preserve purchasing power of my savings.

beagle3 14y ago
> Going after gold hoarders won't yield much. Also no one in the 30's went to jail. I agree with that premise - unless hoarding gold becomes a little more popular. It is in e.g. India; It might come to the US as well, especially if Ben & friends keep devaluing the dollar. I don't remember reading about anyone going to jail, but I do remember reading about federal agents forcibly opening bank safes and such to look for gold. If you have a nontrivial amount, home storage might be problematic. > Coins from a reputable mint are pretty easy. The tungsten forgeries are only cost effective for the bigger bars. For now, true, as far as I know. > If you purchase coins then they can be redeemed for the currency of the day at under the radar levels. I don't see why I should pay tax when trying to preserve purchasing power of my savings. Well, I was restricting the discussion to a law-abiding regime. If you are willing to break the law, I would expect that there are more lucrative ways to do that, with lesser eventual punishment if caught. Note that I completely agree with you that this kind of tax is unfair and unethical. Unfortunately, that IS the law. And even more unfortunately, the vast majority of the population in the world does not understand that they pay income taxes of (however much, 20-60% in the western world depending on your income) - and and additional of 2%-5% of their savings every year in currency devaluation. It's funny, but the government works like a hedge fund: 20% of profit, plus 3% of capital. Except there's no watermarks. And you can't really take your money someplace else that offers better terms (at least not when you area US tax payer, and increasingly in other countries as well)
- wintersFright 14y ago
  See heading 'The myth of a safe deposit box seizures order' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 As an aside I wonder what percentage of the population had boxes back then - compared to now. I mean no one I know has them now - almost everyone saves in currency/stocks etc. Why so anti gold then if you are aware of the perils of saving in currency. Silverbug? :)
  - beagle3 14y ago
    > See heading 'The myth of a safe deposit box seizures order' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 Thanks, I was unaware. > I mean no one I know has them now - Banks have essentially stepped out of the safe business (virtual storage is easier and more lucrative). Those that still offer such services keep raising the prices in an attempt to drive customers away. My business backups were stored in such a bank safety deposit box between 2002 and 2006, at which point they stopped offering the service. > almost everyone saves in currency/stocks etc. "saves" is not the word I would use in this case; I'd use "attempts to store value" for currency and "gambles recklessly" for stocks. But even if we accept "save" - the reason is, of course, the government - think about how hard it has become to keep your gold: try taking delivery of bullion, then try selling it back; you'd probably take 10-20% spread hit if you succeed at all; now try with 10 bars, and you'll likely not succeed at all. > Why so anti gold then if you are aware of the perils of saving in currency. Silverbug? :) Oh, you've got me completely wrong. I'm not anti gold. I'm completely anti fiat money and QE. Its just that I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to figure out how to maintain the value of any assets I have, and am unconvinced that I can use gold for that purpose; not because it's not a good store of value (it is, as are silver, and potentially even platinum and rhodium), but because the logistics are such that I'm unlikely to be able to execute it. Sure, a few coins here and there are easy to manage. But when I sell my apartment, and want that chunk of cash to maintain its purchasing power, a few coins won't cut it.
  - wintersFright 14y ago
    I normally lurk so I don't know why I can't reply to your most recent, so replying here. Agree on your criticism of my loose word of the term saves. I don't agree with your reasons on why people don't buy gold though - most would have no idea what spread is and how it works. From my experience of trying to convince my friends and family to save something in gold - they just find the idea totally foreign of buying a metal that doesn't earn income...even if said income is not keeping up with inflation. Interesting perspective on the boxes. I only have one so don't know about increasing/decreasing availability - I know there is a waiting list for the ones at my bank in the city. I find the price very reasonable for the value I obtain from it (150/year). So what are your thoughts on storing that apartment cash then? I am a goldbug but am interested in other thoughts on preservation of purchasing power.

beagle3 14y ago

> Going after gold hoarders won't yield much. Also no one in the 30's went to jail. I agree with that premise - unless hoarding gold becomes a little more popular. It is in e.g. India; It might come to the US as well, especially if Ben & friends keep devaluing the dollar. I don't remember reading about anyone going to jail, but I do remember reading about federal agents forcibly opening bank safes and such to look for gold. If you have a nontrivial amount, home storage might be problematic. > Coins from a reputable mint are pretty easy. The tungsten forgeries are only cost effective for the bigger bars. For now, true, as far as I know. > If you purchase coins then they can be redeemed for the currency of the day at under the radar levels. I don't see why I should pay tax when trying to preserve purchasing power of my savings. Well, I was restricting the discussion to a law-abiding regime. If you are willing to break the law, I would expect that there are more lucrative ways to do that, with lesser eventual punishment if caught. Note that I completely agree with you that this kind of tax is unfair and unethical. Unfortunately, that IS the law. And even more unfortunately, the vast majority of the population in the world does not understand that they pay income taxes of (however much, 20-60% in the western world depending on your income) - and and additional of 2%-5% of their savings every year in currency devaluation. It's funny, but the government works like a hedge fund: 20% of profit, plus 3% of capital. Except there's no watermarks. And you can't really take your money someplace else that offers better terms (at least not when you area US tax payer, and increasingly in other countries as well)

wintersFright 14y ago
See heading 'The myth of a safe deposit box seizures order' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 As an aside I wonder what percentage of the population had boxes back then - compared to now. I mean no one I know has them now - almost everyone saves in currency/stocks etc. Why so anti gold then if you are aware of the perils of saving in currency. Silverbug? :)
- beagle3 14y ago
  > See heading 'The myth of a safe deposit box seizures order' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 Thanks, I was unaware. > I mean no one I know has them now - Banks have essentially stepped out of the safe business (virtual storage is easier and more lucrative). Those that still offer such services keep raising the prices in an attempt to drive customers away. My business backups were stored in such a bank safety deposit box between 2002 and 2006, at which point they stopped offering the service. > almost everyone saves in currency/stocks etc. "saves" is not the word I would use in this case; I'd use "attempts to store value" for currency and "gambles recklessly" for stocks. But even if we accept "save" - the reason is, of course, the government - think about how hard it has become to keep your gold: try taking delivery of bullion, then try selling it back; you'd probably take 10-20% spread hit if you succeed at all; now try with 10 bars, and you'll likely not succeed at all. > Why so anti gold then if you are aware of the perils of saving in currency. Silverbug? :) Oh, you've got me completely wrong. I'm not anti gold. I'm completely anti fiat money and QE. Its just that I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to figure out how to maintain the value of any assets I have, and am unconvinced that I can use gold for that purpose; not because it's not a good store of value (it is, as are silver, and potentially even platinum and rhodium), but because the logistics are such that I'm unlikely to be able to execute it. Sure, a few coins here and there are easy to manage. But when I sell my apartment, and want that chunk of cash to maintain its purchasing power, a few coins won't cut it.
- wintersFright 14y ago
  I normally lurk so I don't know why I can't reply to your most recent, so replying here. Agree on your criticism of my loose word of the term saves. I don't agree with your reasons on why people don't buy gold though - most would have no idea what spread is and how it works. From my experience of trying to convince my friends and family to save something in gold - they just find the idea totally foreign of buying a metal that doesn't earn income...even if said income is not keeping up with inflation. Interesting perspective on the boxes. I only have one so don't know about increasing/decreasing availability - I know there is a waiting list for the ones at my bank in the city. I find the price very reasonable for the value I obtain from it (150/year). So what are your thoughts on storing that apartment cash then? I am a goldbug but am interested in other thoughts on preservation of purchasing power.