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Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids? You seem to be supposing a model where most

Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids? You seem to be supposing a model where most people naturally want kids, but are just discouraged from having kids because...other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall. In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall.

alephnerd 8mo ago
> Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids Yes. They are much more tolerant about having kids and making sure to give space to people planning to have kids. > In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall. The more likely you and your peers are to have kids, the more likely you are to live in a society which will accommodate you. --- Heck, Germany gives significantly more monetary and subsidized childcare benefits than Israel (which gives almost nothing), and Israel remains significantly more expensive than much of Germany, yet secular Israelis continues to sustain a much higher fertility rate than similar Germans. It is hard to describe how kid unfriendly Western society has become.
- s1artibartfast 8mo ago
  I think it is more than just tolerance and stink eyes. Some cultures actively celebrate children and families. They center them in social life in an inclusive way. This covers inclusion in social events, institutions, and civic design. Kids are not only FUN, but interesting, challenging, and rewarding. I would be very interested in a breakdown of how the American perception changed over time and what the drivers were.
  - lotsofpulp 8mo ago
    Since total fertility rates have the same trend all around the world, why restrict the breakdown to Americans? Seems kind of obvious that doing adult things with freedom during one’s 20s and 30s is deemed more fun than raising children, which necessarily includes foregoing many or all of the adult things due to lack of funds and time.
    - s1artibartfast 8mo ago
      > Seems kind of obvious that doing adult things with freedom during one’s 20s and 30s is deemed more fun than raising children This is exactly what I am talking about. Is the obviousness of this statement constant across time? Would someone in the 1960 or 1980 have found it equally obvious? Alternatively, is it the emphasis on prioritizing fun that changed? Alternatively, has both the perception and reality of fun given up changed? Im mostly interested in breakdown in America because I am an American. Some countries match, some dont. If the underlying drivers are common, I would still find them the most relatable and interesting in the American context.
steveBK123 8mo ago
I think in atomic families in the US, more and more people are brought up without really interacting with children much once they are a teen and stop being a child themselves. What used to be normal teen rights of passage like hanging out with your younger extended family, holding a baby, babysitting the neighbors kids, being a summer camp counselor, helping with youth sports, etc.. are less common. Teens are busy cramming SATs, doing homework, and polishing up their resume for college.
- alephnerd 8mo ago
  > Teens are busy cramming SATs, doing homework, and polishing up their resume for college So are Israelis. Getting into the best IDF units is much more difficult and stressful than getting into an Ivy - it's both academic and physical. But if you get into those units, you will be set for life financially. Otherwise, your just an infantry grunt who wasted a couple years with no discernible skills and facing a future of (best case) working a dead end job that pays $40k a year in a country with a CoL similar to the Bay Area. This is why immigrating abroad is still somewhat popular amongst non-techie Israelis (Zohran's electronics store [0] still hits somewhat close to home). [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdIAajX_sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdIAajX_sI
- porridgeraisin 8mo ago
  Yes, this is closer to my take: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44098431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44098431
  - steveBK123 8mo ago
    Agreed with your take. The lifestyle choices lead to the costs, and it's sort of a circular problem in the end. My dad's (European immigrant) family lived in one of those multi-generational homes you mentioned, and so there was just far less of this self enforced age segregation you see in atomic families. From when I was young, I'd see my extended family at least every 2-3 weeks or more, every other holiday was hanging out with people from newborn to 90 years old. Babies and elderly were pretty regular fixtures of my regular life. By comparison my mom's side which had been here a few generations, I never really saw kids other than when I was a kid myself. I don't think my wife ever held a baby until she was an aunt in her 30s.
angiolillo 8mo ago
> Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids? Yes, absolutely. I used to work in a big city where friends, neighbors, and coworkers with young kids had to sacrifice their career trajectory, friends, hobbies, savings, personal space, and more. Most couples we knew had no kids, some had one, a few exceptional folks had two. A few couples we knew even commented that they ended up having fewer children than they were planning to because of the difficulty with the one(s) they had. Then my partner and I moved near relatives to a small, family-friendly town. Most of our neighbors have two kids, some have three, and a few exceptional folks have four or more. Almost everything here revolves around families -- even my company has family events and taking time to take care of kids is normalized. True, living here did not change our decision to have kids, but it actually did change how many kids we ended up having. > In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall. That's a plausible model, but my model is that people alter their goals based on what they observe happening to other people who pursue those same goals. If young people see their friends, coworkers, and neighbors struggling due to their decision to have children, it seems reasonable that they would reevaluate how important it is to them.

alephnerd 8mo ago

> Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids Yes. They are much more tolerant about having kids and making sure to give space to people planning to have kids. > In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall. The more likely you and your peers are to have kids, the more likely you are to live in a society which will accommodate you. --- Heck, Germany gives significantly more monetary and subsidized childcare benefits than Israel (which gives almost nothing), and Israel remains significantly more expensive than much of Germany, yet secular Israelis continues to sustain a much higher fertility rate than similar Germans. It is hard to describe how kid unfriendly Western society has become.

s1artibartfast 8mo ago
I think it is more than just tolerance and stink eyes. Some cultures actively celebrate children and families. They center them in social life in an inclusive way. This covers inclusion in social events, institutions, and civic design. Kids are not only FUN, but interesting, challenging, and rewarding. I would be very interested in a breakdown of how the American perception changed over time and what the drivers were.
- lotsofpulp 8mo ago
  Since total fertility rates have the same trend all around the world, why restrict the breakdown to Americans? Seems kind of obvious that doing adult things with freedom during one’s 20s and 30s is deemed more fun than raising children, which necessarily includes foregoing many or all of the adult things due to lack of funds and time.
  - s1artibartfast 8mo ago
    > Seems kind of obvious that doing adult things with freedom during one’s 20s and 30s is deemed more fun than raising children This is exactly what I am talking about. Is the obviousness of this statement constant across time? Would someone in the 1960 or 1980 have found it equally obvious? Alternatively, is it the emphasis on prioritizing fun that changed? Alternatively, has both the perception and reality of fun given up changed? Im mostly interested in breakdown in America because I am an American. Some countries match, some dont. If the underlying drivers are common, I would still find them the most relatable and interesting in the American context.

steveBK123 8mo ago

I think in atomic families in the US, more and more people are brought up without really interacting with children much once they are a teen and stop being a child themselves. What used to be normal teen rights of passage like hanging out with your younger extended family, holding a baby, babysitting the neighbors kids, being a summer camp counselor, helping with youth sports, etc.. are less common. Teens are busy cramming SATs, doing homework, and polishing up their resume for college.

alephnerd 8mo ago
> Teens are busy cramming SATs, doing homework, and polishing up their resume for college So are Israelis. Getting into the best IDF units is much more difficult and stressful than getting into an Ivy - it's both academic and physical. But if you get into those units, you will be set for life financially. Otherwise, your just an infantry grunt who wasted a couple years with no discernible skills and facing a future of (best case) working a dead end job that pays $40k a year in a country with a CoL similar to the Bay Area. This is why immigrating abroad is still somewhat popular amongst non-techie Israelis (Zohran's electronics store [0] still hits somewhat close to home). [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdIAajX_sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdIAajX_sI
porridgeraisin 8mo ago
Yes, this is closer to my take: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44098431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44098431
- steveBK123 8mo ago
  Agreed with your take. The lifestyle choices lead to the costs, and it's sort of a circular problem in the end. My dad's (European immigrant) family lived in one of those multi-generational homes you mentioned, and so there was just far less of this self enforced age segregation you see in atomic families. From when I was young, I'd see my extended family at least every 2-3 weeks or more, every other holiday was hanging out with people from newborn to 90 years old. Babies and elderly were pretty regular fixtures of my regular life. By comparison my mom's side which had been here a few generations, I never really saw kids other than when I was a kid myself. I don't think my wife ever held a baby until she was an aunt in her 30s.

angiolillo 8mo ago

> Are you saying that Israelis are more likely to have kids mainly because Israeli society is more tolerant of kids? Yes, absolutely. I used to work in a big city where friends, neighbors, and coworkers with young kids had to sacrifice their career trajectory, friends, hobbies, savings, personal space, and more. Most couples we knew had no kids, some had one, a few exceptional folks had two. A few couples we knew even commented that they ended up having fewer children than they were planning to because of the difficulty with the one(s) they had. Then my partner and I moved near relatives to a small, family-friendly town. Most of our neighbors have two kids, some have three, and a few exceptional folks have four or more. Almost everything here revolves around families -- even my company has family events and taking time to take care of kids is normalized. True, living here did not change our decision to have kids, but it actually did change how many kids we ended up having. > In my model, people choose to have kids because it's an important life goal for them, and this decision is not very much affected by whether other people might give them a stink eye if their kids run around in a mall. That's a plausible model, but my model is that people alter their goals based on what they observe happening to other people who pursue those same goals. If young people see their friends, coworkers, and neighbors struggling due to their decision to have children, it seems reasonable that they would reevaluate how important it is to them.