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I use my credit and debit cards the same way today as I did before smartphones existed. I never invited the extra surveillance middleman of Google/Apple into my

by gdulli 8mo ago

I use my credit and debit cards the same way today as I did before smartphones existed. I never invited the extra surveillance middleman of Google/Apple into my transactions. And the convenience of tapping or swiping a plastic card is simpler than using my phone anyway. Is this not possible in Spain?

direwolf20 8mo ago
I put my debit card in my smartphone case. Best of both worlds.
severino 8mo ago
Yes, but in Spain all of our cards are Visa or Mastercard, afaik, so you can't really avoid using American tech in your daily payments (unless you use cash, which remains a very convenient method, by the way).
- prmoustache 8mo ago
  The fact you have the visa or mastercard logo doesn't mean you can't avoit to use their tech for your daily payments. Example, in France most debit and credit cards are called "carte bleue" (literally blue card) but all of them either have a visa/mastercard logo. However when you pay with them you can decide with the merchant to use the CB system or the visa/mastercard. Sadly very few people know that and do the selection.
  - severino 8mo ago
    Interesting. I don't think there's anything similar here in Spain, though. On the other hand, in this same thread, somebody said Visa acquired that "Carte Bleue" system, and Wikipedia states it was discontinued in 2010. So maybe it's not possible to use anything other than visa/mc in France anymore
    - prmoustache 8mo ago
      You mention an interesting thing I didn't realize before. Carte Bleues, the brand, seems to have been sold to Visa but CB, the payment system would still be a separate thing and now mean Carte Bancaire. It is not helped by the fact that french people literally adopted carte bleue as a generic name for payment cards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group
      - severino 8mo ago
        Thanks for the info. By the way, is there any difference, apart from not having to rely on foreign parties, for the buyer between selecting CB or Visa/MC for his payment? And I suppose it's the shop owner who decides the default when the buyer doesn't choose.
mig39 8mo ago
I'm with you. Low-tech works just fine. I hate the idea of having to depend on a working phone just to pay for things. But isn't the promise of Apple Pay that you never expose your real credit card # to the merchant? So they can't track you? I know Walmart in Canada really resisted Apple Pay for a few years because it would mean no more ability to track people by their payment methods.
- nozzlegear 8mo ago
  > But isn't the promise of Apple Pay that you never expose your real credit card # to the merchant? So they can't track you? I know Walmart in Canada really resisted Apple Pay for a few years because it would mean no more ability to track people by their payment methods. Yes, this is exactly what Walmart does in the US since they still don't accept Apple Pay/Google Pay. When I go in and make a purchase using my credit or debit card, they'll associate it with my Walmart account and it'll show up as a "recent order" in the Walmart app because I have the same card saved there for ordering groceries online. They use those in-store purchases to recommend things to add to my grocery orders all the time.
  - Sharparam 8mo ago
    > since they still don't accept Apple Pay/Google Pay. When I go in and make a purchase using my credit or debit card, they'll associate it with my Walmart account Why wouldn't they be able to do that with at least Google Pay? I pay with my phone using Google Pay at a Swedish grocery store chain and it's connected to my loyalty account there. (Since I don't use Apple Pay I don't know if the same works there.)
    - nozzlegear 8mo ago
      I guess I'm not familiar with how Google Pay actually works, I assumed it was the same as Apple Pay. With Apple Pay the merchant gets a randomized card number on every transaction.
      - nozzlegear 8mo ago
hearsathought 8mo ago
> I never invited the extra surveillance middleman What's an extra layer of surveillance? Why accept the "credit and debit" surveillance middlemen but not the google/apple middlenmen? What the world needs are "cash cards". Something equivalent to cash not tied to your identity that you can use in the real and virtual world. I simply do not understand why governments or the private sector do not provide such options.
- gdulli 8mo ago
  Credit cards provide convenience and cash back benefits. Some might prefer to pay cash for everything for ultimate privacy, and that's fine. But credit cards are the compromise I make. I can still pay cash when I think it's appropriate for a given transaction. Using Google or Apple Pay so I can tap my phone instead of my card gives me no extra benefit that I care about and complicates my ecosystem with another party.
  - robocat 8mo ago
    > cash back benefits Only in the U.S. In many other countries the processing fees are regulated by the government so the banks can't afford to give you your "cash back".
    - usrusr 8mo ago
      How dare Europe force card companies to distribute the cost of being poor on all customers. Cashback is effectively a special fee levied exclusively on those who don't qualify.
      - robocat 8mo ago
        I was told the other day that the people most likely to choose to avoid the extra 2.5% fees are the wealthier. In New Zealand, most low margin business (like cafes) ask you to accept an ~2.5% transaction fee (if you use a credit card or paywave). You can avoid the fee by using a debit card with a chip. I'm unsure what choice the poorer make. If you're actually low income, maybe you don't go to cafes. I did notice that a thrift store didn't charge the extra 2.5%: so perhaps poorer people have more pressure to use cards with fees? Amex is noted for its high fees - so perhaps it is a bathtub where only the middleclass care.
Curiositiy 8mo ago
Thanks! ANOTHER SANE voice of reason! Nothing tops the simplicity of using plastic, either via chip or NFC. Leave the friggen' phone at home!
Detrytus 8mo ago
> I use my credit and debit cards the same way today as I did before smartphones existed. How exactly are you doing that? with 3D Secure online credit card transactions now require confirmation in the mobile app (or via OTP sent by SMS, but this is being phased out, as it is insecure)

by gdulli 8mo ago

direwolf20 8mo ago

I put my debit card in my smartphone case. Best of both worlds.

severino 8mo ago

Yes, but in Spain all of our cards are Visa or Mastercard, afaik, so you can't really avoid using American tech in your daily payments (unless you use cash, which remains a very convenient method, by the way).

prmoustache 8mo ago
The fact you have the visa or mastercard logo doesn't mean you can't avoit to use their tech for your daily payments. Example, in France most debit and credit cards are called "carte bleue" (literally blue card) but all of them either have a visa/mastercard logo. However when you pay with them you can decide with the merchant to use the CB system or the visa/mastercard. Sadly very few people know that and do the selection.
- severino 8mo ago
  Interesting. I don't think there's anything similar here in Spain, though. On the other hand, in this same thread, somebody said Visa acquired that "Carte Bleue" system, and Wikipedia states it was discontinued in 2010. So maybe it's not possible to use anything other than visa/mc in France anymore
  - prmoustache 8mo ago
    You mention an interesting thing I didn't realize before. Carte Bleues, the brand, seems to have been sold to Visa but CB, the payment system would still be a separate thing and now mean Carte Bancaire. It is not helped by the fact that french people literally adopted carte bleue as a generic name for payment cards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group
    - severino 8mo ago
      Thanks for the info. By the way, is there any difference, apart from not having to rely on foreign parties, for the buyer between selecting CB or Visa/MC for his payment? And I suppose it's the shop owner who decides the default when the buyer doesn't choose.

mig39 8mo ago

I'm with you. Low-tech works just fine. I hate the idea of having to depend on a working phone just to pay for things. But isn't the promise of Apple Pay that you never expose your real credit card # to the merchant? So they can't track you? I know Walmart in Canada really resisted Apple Pay for a few years because it would mean no more ability to track people by their payment methods.

nozzlegear 8mo ago
> But isn't the promise of Apple Pay that you never expose your real credit card # to the merchant? So they can't track you? I know Walmart in Canada really resisted Apple Pay for a few years because it would mean no more ability to track people by their payment methods. Yes, this is exactly what Walmart does in the US since they still don't accept Apple Pay/Google Pay. When I go in and make a purchase using my credit or debit card, they'll associate it with my Walmart account and it'll show up as a "recent order" in the Walmart app because I have the same card saved there for ordering groceries online. They use those in-store purchases to recommend things to add to my grocery orders all the time.
- Sharparam 8mo ago
  > since they still don't accept Apple Pay/Google Pay. When I go in and make a purchase using my credit or debit card, they'll associate it with my Walmart account Why wouldn't they be able to do that with at least Google Pay? I pay with my phone using Google Pay at a Swedish grocery store chain and it's connected to my loyalty account there. (Since I don't use Apple Pay I don't know if the same works there.)
  - nozzlegear 8mo ago
    I guess I'm not familiar with how Google Pay actually works, I assumed it was the same as Apple Pay. With Apple Pay the merchant gets a randomized card number on every transaction.
    - nozzlegear 8mo ago

hearsathought 8mo ago

> I never invited the extra surveillance middleman What's an extra layer of surveillance? Why accept the "credit and debit" surveillance middlemen but not the google/apple middlenmen? What the world needs are "cash cards". Something equivalent to cash not tied to your identity that you can use in the real and virtual world. I simply do not understand why governments or the private sector do not provide such options.

gdulli 8mo ago
Credit cards provide convenience and cash back benefits. Some might prefer to pay cash for everything for ultimate privacy, and that's fine. But credit cards are the compromise I make. I can still pay cash when I think it's appropriate for a given transaction. Using Google or Apple Pay so I can tap my phone instead of my card gives me no extra benefit that I care about and complicates my ecosystem with another party.
- robocat 8mo ago
  > cash back benefits Only in the U.S. In many other countries the processing fees are regulated by the government so the banks can't afford to give you your "cash back".
  - usrusr 8mo ago
    How dare Europe force card companies to distribute the cost of being poor on all customers. Cashback is effectively a special fee levied exclusively on those who don't qualify.
    - robocat 8mo ago
      I was told the other day that the people most likely to choose to avoid the extra 2.5% fees are the wealthier. In New Zealand, most low margin business (like cafes) ask you to accept an ~2.5% transaction fee (if you use a credit card or paywave). You can avoid the fee by using a debit card with a chip. I'm unsure what choice the poorer make. If you're actually low income, maybe you don't go to cafes. I did notice that a thrift store didn't charge the extra 2.5%: so perhaps poorer people have more pressure to use cards with fees? Amex is noted for its high fees - so perhaps it is a bathtub where only the middleclass care.

Curiositiy 8mo ago

Thanks! ANOTHER SANE voice of reason! Nothing tops the simplicity of using plastic, either via chip or NFC. Leave the friggen' phone at home!

Detrytus 8mo ago

> I use my credit and debit cards the same way today as I did before smartphones existed. How exactly are you doing that? with 3D Secure online credit card transactions now require confirmation in the mobile app (or via OTP sent by SMS, but this is being phased out, as it is insecure)