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>In Atlas Shrugged, Rand’s hero John Galt grows tired of the leeching workers that live off the business acumen of others, so he leads an upper-class strike tha

>In Atlas Shrugged, Rand’s hero John Galt grows tired of the leeching workers that live off the business acumen of others, so he leads an upper-class strike that leaves industry decimated. Rand’s point is that without economic supermen, the country would collapse. She of course ignores the fact that the same outcome would result if every working stiff in the country up and quit too. Would it? We're headed towards a welfare state where de-facto every working stiff in the country is going to go on permanent vacation. Only this time it won't be bread and circuses, it'll be sustainable because of the power law and automation.

SCdF 14y ago
So I'm not an American nor do I live in America, but you can't possibly be serious? Am I misreading, or are you actually saying that the US is heading toward every non 'entrepreneur' essentially quitting their jobs and getting the benefit?
a_bonobo 14y ago
Does your country really head towards a "permanent vacation"? In Germany, we have a great social system, with (basically) free university, healthcare for everyone (until a couple years ago it was unheard of that a person didn't have health-care), a good public transport-system (I know, USA is bigger, hard to compare), pretty good unemployment benefits (which are being cut down by the liberal party more and more), a very good protection of workers and still we're one of the top economies in the world. Every time I see Americans complain about their alleged "welfare-state" I'm just reminded of your crippling student-debt, people dying because they can't afford basic health-care, people getting fired because their boss threw a hissy-fit, people working two or three jobs so they can pay rent and I can't help but wonder how you people can even think of heading towards a health-care state.
- angersock 14y ago
  How's the healthcare situation in Greece, Spain, Italy, etc. compare with Germany's? Didn't austerity measures help with that?
  - a_bonobo 14y ago
    It looks like healthcare systems in Greece are now collapsing: http://www.naturalnews.com/036257_Greece_economic_collapse_hospitals.html http://www.naturalnews.com/036257_Greece_economic_collapse_h... But I have no first-hand accounts of that and know no-one living in these countries, but it looks like you're right (at least about Greece): http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57453670/austerity-brings-greeces-healthcare-system-to-its-knees/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57453670/austerity-bri... (they now can at least afford to pay their hospital workers)
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "Didn't austerity measures help with that?" Austerity measures are meant to crush an economy, not help.
    - angersock 14y ago
      (this was the joke you see) (our german friend is better off, perhaps, from the looting of those nations)
      - a_bonobo 14y ago
        Looting?? Germany divides a substantial amount of its money to these nations so they don't collapse and take the currency with them!
        nirvana 14y ago
        Are you enjoying being forced (by the threat of currency collapse) to give your money to a deadbeat country that has spent the past two decades in lavish and irresponsible spending, while you were working hard to better yourselves? And yet you think its wrong for individuals to feel that they should keep what they spent their lives building, rather than have it taken at gunpoint and given to someone who chose to waste their lives?
- astral303 14y ago
  That's exactly why the grand parent post is sad. It's sad that so many in the US believe that. Obviously, the US is far far removed from the much more socialist states like Germany, but yet it doesn't keep the cries of imminent welfare state away. You'd think that this would be a particular pain point on NH: innovative startups are especially hurt by the lack of universal healthcare coverage. Many seasoned software veterans will not consider quitting a large corporation job to do a startup because they need good health coverage for themselves or their family. This applies to more than just software industries, of course.
pixelmonkey 14y ago
It's baffling to think you could seriously believe that everyone (even anyone) who is poor enough to be on welfare actually enjoys their economic station in life, does not have any ambition of upward mobility, and has no intrinsic motivation. Based on the productivity increases and stagnant wages of the last 30 years, working stiffs probably deserve a permanent vacation, but I assure you, they won't be getting it. As Frederick Douglass once said, "power concedes nothing without demand", and workers the world over have been demanding less and less of their employers over time. Rand's bogeyman was government. A liberal's bogeyman is big business. My bogeyman? Bigness. Not regulation, but simply big organizations that try to exert power & control over individuals. (How big is too big? Not sure, but here's a start: >1,000 individuals.) Some government regulation can actually combat this negative exertion of power (e.g. consumer protections, food labeling) whereas other regulations can make it worse (e.g. TSA, airport screenings). I love small organizations. I think I love startups because they are small and most people start to dislike startups once they get big. The best big companies try to reorganize themselves to feel smaller. I think Rand was a sycophant for corporate titans whom no serious startup entrepreneur should view as a role model, neither the titans nor the author herself. As for the OP, I think the Randian connection is overstated. People who hate government tend to love Rand because it gives them a moral justification for hating the only institution society created for its self-benefit. The entrepreneur in question isn't some crusading Randian; he's just your everyday government hater who happens to have a library card.

SCdF 14y ago

So I'm not an American nor do I live in America, but you can't possibly be serious? Am I misreading, or are you actually saying that the US is heading toward every non 'entrepreneur' essentially quitting their jobs and getting the benefit?

a_bonobo 14y ago

Does your country really head towards a "permanent vacation"? In Germany, we have a great social system, with (basically) free university, healthcare for everyone (until a couple years ago it was unheard of that a person didn't have health-care), a good public transport-system (I know, USA is bigger, hard to compare), pretty good unemployment benefits (which are being cut down by the liberal party more and more), a very good protection of workers and still we're one of the top economies in the world. Every time I see Americans complain about their alleged "welfare-state" I'm just reminded of your crippling student-debt, people dying because they can't afford basic health-care, people getting fired because their boss threw a hissy-fit, people working two or three jobs so they can pay rent and I can't help but wonder how you people can even think of heading towards a health-care state.

angersock 14y ago
How's the healthcare situation in Greece, Spain, Italy, etc. compare with Germany's? Didn't austerity measures help with that?
- a_bonobo 14y ago
  It looks like healthcare systems in Greece are now collapsing: http://www.naturalnews.com/036257_Greece_economic_collapse_hospitals.html http://www.naturalnews.com/036257_Greece_economic_collapse_h... But I have no first-hand accounts of that and know no-one living in these countries, but it looks like you're right (at least about Greece): http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57453670/austerity-brings-greeces-healthcare-system-to-its-knees/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57453670/austerity-bri... (they now can at least afford to pay their hospital workers)
- illuminate 14y ago
  "Didn't austerity measures help with that?" Austerity measures are meant to crush an economy, not help.
  - angersock 14y ago
    (this was the joke you see) (our german friend is better off, perhaps, from the looting of those nations)
    - a_bonobo 14y ago
      Looting?? Germany divides a substantial amount of its money to these nations so they don't collapse and take the currency with them!
      - nirvana 14y ago
        Are you enjoying being forced (by the threat of currency collapse) to give your money to a deadbeat country that has spent the past two decades in lavish and irresponsible spending, while you were working hard to better yourselves? And yet you think its wrong for individuals to feel that they should keep what they spent their lives building, rather than have it taken at gunpoint and given to someone who chose to waste their lives?
astral303 14y ago
That's exactly why the grand parent post is sad. It's sad that so many in the US believe that. Obviously, the US is far far removed from the much more socialist states like Germany, but yet it doesn't keep the cries of imminent welfare state away. You'd think that this would be a particular pain point on NH: innovative startups are especially hurt by the lack of universal healthcare coverage. Many seasoned software veterans will not consider quitting a large corporation job to do a startup because they need good health coverage for themselves or their family. This applies to more than just software industries, of course.

pixelmonkey 14y ago

It's baffling to think you could seriously believe that everyone (even anyone) who is poor enough to be on welfare actually enjoys their economic station in life, does not have any ambition of upward mobility, and has no intrinsic motivation. Based on the productivity increases and stagnant wages of the last 30 years, working stiffs probably deserve a permanent vacation, but I assure you, they won't be getting it. As Frederick Douglass once said, "power concedes nothing without demand", and workers the world over have been demanding less and less of their employers over time. Rand's bogeyman was government. A liberal's bogeyman is big business. My bogeyman? Bigness. Not regulation, but simply big organizations that try to exert power & control over individuals. (How big is too big? Not sure, but here's a start: >1,000 individuals.) Some government regulation can actually combat this negative exertion of power (e.g. consumer protections, food labeling) whereas other regulations can make it worse (e.g. TSA, airport screenings). I love small organizations. I think I love startups because they are small and most people start to dislike startups once they get big. The best big companies try to reorganize themselves to feel smaller. I think Rand was a sycophant for corporate titans whom no serious startup entrepreneur should view as a role model, neither the titans nor the author herself. As for the OP, I think the Randian connection is overstated. People who hate government tend to love Rand because it gives them a moral justification for hating the only institution society created for its self-benefit. The entrepreneur in question isn't some crusading Randian; he's just your everyday government hater who happens to have a library card.