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Bazzite Post-Mortem
- uncletaco 8mo agoVery nice of Bazzite to adopt Drama Tuesday. They are true gamers.
- 837263292029 8mo ago[flagged]
- RicoElectrico 8mo agoIt's as if everything gaming related attracts immature types. YouTube comment sections, forums, software projects...
- pamcake 8mo agoKids and people who identify as such are overrepresented among gamers. Can't really blame the teens for immaturity.
- CodinM 8mo agoGod damn it Kyle.
- sho_hn 8mo agoI understand there's been drama, and someone walked away or was pushed out. I don't quite care enough to understand it all or point at guilty parties. However, my current understanding is that the project remains active, so titling this article "Post Mortem" feels a bit like it's done in bad faith as it's usually applied to projects that are over. It's certainly what I immediately assumed made it newsworthy.
- Forgeties79 8mo agoAs a bazzite user who had no idea anything was up until this headline, yes that was very concerning at first glance
- jovial_cavalier 8mo agoAntheas was the #1 most active developer, and responsible for almost all low level integrations.
- sho_hn 8mo agoSoftware history is rife with projects that outlive a person like that leaving, though. Ulrich Drepper comes to mind immediately. They don't own the project.
- bee_rider 8mo agoJust based on this blog post it seems like he wanted the project to be more “professional” in some way that the rest of the developer group didn’t. I wonder if that difference in vision, combined with a (probably justified based on your comment) feeling that he was doing a disproportionate amount of the work lead to an unsustainable situation. Calling it a post-mortem while others are continuing the project still seems kind of petty, though.
- aprilwaters 8mo agoNope, he was not, and his software will be replaced.
- jovial_cavalier 8mo agohttps://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/commits/main/?after=e49f5fac49fcdd8cc66e969357537779619fc67d+384 https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/commits/main/?after=e49f...
- _lvbh 8mo agoLooking at the contributor analytics: https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/graphs/contributors https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/graphs/contributors Doesn't look like he was, but then looking at the actual commit list: https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/commits/main/?before=e49f5fac49fcdd8cc66e969357537779619fc67d+385 https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/commits/main/?before=e49... He definitely had more than the 14 commits listed. They might've lost their email due to the conflicts & lost ownership over the commits?
- hiccup_socks 8mo ago>"Post Mortem" feels a bit like it's done in bad faith as it's usually applied to projects that are over. is it? outside of autopsies, i think i have only ever seen it used as a synonym for "incident report". i dont think ive ever associated the term specifically with the end of a project. e.g. cloudflare uses the tag for all of their incident reports (https://blog.cloudflare.com/tag/post-mortem/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/tag/post-mortem/), not as a signal that they are closing shop
- sho_hn 8mo agoGamasutra has a famous line of articles where game developers provide retrospectives on how the development of their titles went, maybe I'm influenced by that. I'm aware about the use in incident reports of course, but then you still don't call it "<project name> Post-Mortem" but use a more specific namespace.
- throwaway_ocr 8mo agoIn the incident case, it's a post-mortem on the incident. The incident itself is (hopefully) resolved and can now be dissected to learn about what went wrong and how things can improve in the future. That's what a post-mortem implies to me in the tech industry. A thing happened, it's over now, here are the lessons we learned to take into the future.
- sho_hn 8mo agoYes, but Bazzite is not over.
- snapplebobapple 8mo agoIf you read the article, way down at the end he pulls it around. He means it's dead as a serious os that vendors can ship. It'll live on for hobbyists but you better be prepared for a bumpy ride as the YOLO crew hits send on increasingly larger amounts of stuff before its ready and continue to act unprofessionally (my paraphrase, but I believe I captured it).
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- 0xedd 8mo ago[dead]
- ekianjo 8mo ago"someone" is the main developer behind Bazzite. That's some context your post is missing.
- ziml77 8mo agoGlad I decided not to stick with Bazzite. I gave it a try a few months ago and had issues with Bazaar crashing (not at all low end hardware btw). If the primary method to install software was that broken on a fresh install, there was no way I was going to trust the OS at all, no matter how many people on YouTube and HN talked about how amazing it is.
- xd1936 8mo agoWhat alternative did you switch to?
- Cyph0n 8mo agoI never tried Bazzite, but have been using Jovian, which is a NixOS-based gaming setup. I have heard that CachyOS (Arch) and Nobara (Fedora) are two other decent options.
- TehCorwiz 8mo agoI tried it but couldn't get it stable on my system. Ended up with EndeavorOS which is arch-based with a much better-install process.
- ziml77 8mo agoI went with CachyOS. It's based off of Arch and compiles packages with flags for more modern CPUs. They also build extra packages that aren't normally provided by Arch (always nice to rely a little less on the AUR). And their default scheduler is supposed to provide a smoother gaming experience, though they have a selection of schedulers if you don't like that one.
- helle253 8mo agoman, i was JUST thinking about switching out windows for bazzite, because the only thing i use my windows machine for is video games... might need to hold off on that, as much as it pains me, with all the weird & sloppy updates windows is pushing out.
- ta9000 8mo agoI’d recommend trying Linux Mint with Steam.
- dismalaf 8mo agoMint needs to die. It's the most ancient, archaic distro ever. Replacing something that's SOTA with something that still uses X11 and years old software isn't it (it makes Debian Stable look modern).
- morshu9001 8mo agoI tried Linux desktop for the first time in like a decade. Didn't know Xorg was deprecated for real, as in most distros moved to Wayland. Was surprised that the one hold out was Mint. And learned the hard way that Mint didn't work on my fairly normal PC, due to an Xorg issue. This is the thing so many people recommend?! No wonder Linux is unpopular. Also there like 20 competing ways to install packages now. Used to just be apt.
- esseph 8mo ago> Also there like 20 competing ways to install packages now. Used to just be apt This is very incorrect. There's been far more for 35+ years * apt/.deb * yum(dnf)/.rpm * Tarballs * Ports trees * Flatpak * Snap * Etc, etc, etc
- morshu9001 8mo agoFlatpak and Snap are new to me, and that's the annoyance. Like I get if there's some technical advantage to a snap, but apt can install snaps too. Also idk what .appimage is. rpm was a thing that existed but wasn't a Mint way of installing. Tar, yes. I can see why you'd consider a tar a package, but I was thinking of things actually designed for packages, and tar isn't really an extra thing to learn and deal with. Port tree, idk never heard of that.
- BoppreH 8mo agoAs a happy Bazzite user, I had no idea things were so bumpy. At least the migration to other os-tree distros is trivial (Fedora Kinoite -> Bazzite was one or two shell commands). My main reason for using the distro was the built-in nvidia drivers for my old graphics card.
- teamspirit 8mo agoBazzite made it so easy to switch from windows. I first tried cachyos but bazzite’s gamemode worked perfectly from the start, hdr and vrr included, on nvidia. Turned an expensive PC into an expensive console and made me so happy. Just the fact I can sleep the system mid-game and resume is magic! Guess I gotta go back to cachy and try again. Bummer
- uncletaco 8mo agoWhy? Because some guy was pushed out of the friend group?
- teamspirit 8mo agoWell, yes, but that’s an over simplification. My main concern is the instability. I don’t want to deal with a project that’s in turmoil and Cachy feels like a more stable project, even before reading any of this. It’s a larger user base and therefore more likely to stick around (or so I tell myself).
- 5G_activated 8mo agoi'd be surprised if there are more users of cachy than bazzite. what gets missed is that bazzite is, to borrow video game parlance, a mod of fedora's atomic desktops. every piece created to build and maintain the system is on github. it's not rocket science, it's a collection of dockerfiles, rpm specs, config files and github actions workflows. and fedora is not going away any time soon.
- tracker1 8mo agoThe guy that did the bulk of the hardware integration work...
- ziml77 8mo agoIt's silly to reduce all issues like this to just pointless drama between people. It affects the product, especially if key people are pushed out. From the sounds of it, the person left running the show has already made a bunch of bad decisions (as I already commented on I ran into one of the issues caused by those bad decisions).
- dismalaf 8mo agoFor everyone who thinks this is the death of Bazzite or whatever, keep in mind Bazzite, all the UBlue projects, are all based on Fedora Atomic which makes it super easy to make an immutable spin. There's also Silverblue which is ready to go out of the box (unless you have Nvidia), Nobara which adds some gaming things. And on a different vein CachyOS is making waves with some gamers (but it's Arch based instead of Fedora and not atomic/immutable).
- exitb 8mo agoAlso Jovian Nix, which is great if someone is already invested in that ecosystem.
- shantara 8mo agoIt’s worth pointing out that the official Bazzite position is that Antheas was removed from the project for breaching Code of Conduct and harassing people in their official Discord server
- dismalaf 8mo ago[flagged]
- shantara 8mo agoIt didn’t impact me as a user, and I let the maintainers deal with their drama.
- micromacrofoot 8mo agowas publicly being rude to the point of making other contributors leave (even after being asked to stop) and at least one case of using a slur they said it themselves in this post > Yes, I know I am hard to work with. Yes, I know that I pushed certain OSS contributors away. generally the kind of person that gives open source a bad reputation, you can be critical or anti-social without being an asshole
- hiprob 8mo agowhat about linus torvalds
- rbtbisrespected 8mo ago[dead]
- micromacrofoot 8mo agohe's the guy that created the linux kernel
- malicka 8mo agoYou can be Dr. House MD only when you have the rep and skills of Dr. House MD. I think Linus definitely cleared that threshold.
- ramon156 8mo agoI don't care enough about the drama to deep-dive, but as far as I can tell both parties are at fault. At least Bazzite did not make a "post mortem" blog post on a project that is still active. Bit petty if you ask me
- jna_sh 8mo agoBeen on Bazzite for a while now and had very few issues, though to backup the sentiments of Antheas here, they have managed to upset the maintainer of the Go-XLR Linux Utility with their fast and loose HW changes: https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-utility/issues/239 https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-utility/issues/239 Looking around a couple of adjacent communities, it seems the Bazzite maintainers might have acted in the best community interest on this one, so I'm optimistic things will continue in a positive way. Still, might make me a little less full-throated about recommending Bazzite, knowing there's such drama under the surface.
- jna_sh 8mo agoWelcome to the comment section Kyle! https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-utility/issues/239#issuecomment-3879150459 https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-utility/issues/239#i...
- rolymath 8mo agoThis blog post is the only exposure I have to this whole thing, and from it, all I can say for sure is that this post is incredibly immature.
- mhitza 8mo agoI guess the good thing about Bazzite, CachyOS, Omarchy and what have you, is that it brings new users to Linux. I would still like to see most users pick established distros, as contributions there have a higher impact on the ecosystem. But self-named gamers are probably harder to reason with.
- exographicskip 8mo agoBeen running cachyos for months, drama-free
- caconym_ 8mo agoI've been using desktop Linux for 20 years in various capacities. I most recently picked Bazzite for my gaming/desktop VM because it's simple to set up and works better than other distros I've tried to game on in the recent past. It's that simple.
- snapplebobapple 8mo agoYou're basically me except instead of gaming I ripped out hyprjellynix (my super crappy nixos config to autologin to a window manager and start jellyfin media player setup for bazzite because it just worked so well and auto update worked so well and setting up new boxes was a breeze. I just need it to keep booting into kde and loading jellyfin media player and updating and rebooting at 3 am every night on my 3 boxes so really hoping I don't notice this change. If I do I'll have to find another immutable os that can do this and works great with hardware acceleration on the cheap nuc like n150 based boxes I prefer for this.
- ThatMedicIsASpy 8mo agoThe good part of Bazzite is I can just rebase to fedora kinoite and continue to be happy.
- devl547 8mo ago>Bazzite's fate is sealed as a non-commercial hobbyist-like OS. Sounds like good news to me.
- moonlion_eth 8mo agoCommunity member is problematic, makes themselves the victim
- hiprob 8mo agowhat exactly happened to bazzite? I've seen so much hype around the distro and buzz among normal people, that it almost became THE normal gamer distro, so much so it completely overshadowed nobara and whatever other gamer gimmick distros are out there
- aprilwaters 8mo agoIts fine and did not die. In fact its growing as always, even with "drama". https://github.com/ublue-os/countme/blob/main/growth_bazzite.svg https://github.com/ublue-os/countme/blob/main/growth_bazzite...
- cobolexpert 8mo agoRelevant comment from some months ago [1]. Personally I find that sticking to distros backed by companies or very large communities is just easier in the long term (Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/Arch). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46092225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46092225
- jajuuka 8mo agoOn desktops and servers yeah. Bazzite was a bit of a special case as it was catered to handheld devices. So it did have that going for it. A one stop install that just supported everything on these devices from the start.
- opan 8mo agoI've been thinking we could eliminate a lot of niche specialized distros by replacing them with system configs for Guix System or NixOS. Maybe if you got Ansible involved it could work for Debian and Arch also. Set your default packages, custom kernel, whatever else in there. Everything needing a big brand, name, logo, website, and so on seems a bit excessive at times.
- shantara 8mo agoNow it’s your responsibility to explain what any of these words mean to an average user who just wants to play their Steam games. Like it or not, brands have power. It’s been hard enough to convince people already willing to try Linux gaming to use one of the dedicated gaming distros, instead of waiting for when SteamOS is going to support their hardware.
- plagiarist 8mo agoBazzite is sortof in that category, though. Fedora atomic is a podman container image, and Bazzite is using that as FROM in their Containerfile. It's niche and specialized only to the extent that they're providing gaming specific setup (like Nvidia drivers). It's mostly a Fedora system. https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/blob/main/Containerfile https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/blob/main/Containerfile
- WhereIsTheTruth 8mo agoYou like me for my (always right) conspiratorial takes I got another one: Look, follow the money, Microsoft knows Windows 11 on handhelds is a dumpster fire right now, and they are not ready to drop their own "Xbox Portable" yet So how do they keep the market from moving to the alternative SteamOS/Valve? They trojan horse the "alternative" Think about it: Bazzite pops up, gains massive community "trust", every traditionally pro-MSFT media talk about it, and then coincidentally becomes the loudest voice trashing GPD's HW support, why would they do that? It's a classic Embrace, Extend, Extinguish play FUD: Use Bazzite as an "undercover" $MSFT project to make GPD look like a risky, unoptimized mess Damage: GPD takes the hit because they are actually trying to innovate, while the "community" devs (who are definitely on a $MSFT gang) tell everyone to just buy an Rog Ally ($MSFT Partner) or wait for the next Microsoft Xbox handheld Pivot: Once GPD is sidelined as a "niche hobbyist risk", Microsoft drops a polished Handheld UX for Windows, Bazzite magically "loses funding" or support, and everyone gets funneled back into the Game Pass ecosystem on "approved" hardware Bazzite isn't a "community project", it's a trojan hose GPD bet on the wrong horse thinking that community was neutral
- malicka 8mo agoConvoluted, but hypothetically possible. We have no reason to think that right now, though…
- 0xedd 8mo ago[dead]
- liamgm 8mo agonot undercover, kyle is microsoft employee based on his github bio. also if you wanna support linux on gaming, just buy hardware that support steamos like steamdeck, steam machine, steam frame, legion go s, rog ally.
- maeln 8mo agoSometimes I feel like Discord as been nothing but a bane on OSS. A chat is inherently less searchable than a wiki/forum/documentation, and those sources are often readable without needing to authenticate, which meant that you could find an answer through Google and such. Most project now don't bother with publicly readable and archivable (and so offline viewable) information sources and just rely on Discord. This lead to the same newbie question being answered over and over again, and is a clear degradation of the UX. But on top of that, most people see Discord as a hangout. Almost all Discord server I know have an "offtopic"/"random"/"meme"/etc channel, if not several. This almost inevitably lead to drama on a scale that newsgroups and IRC fellows could have only dreamed off. And considering that a lot of devs are able to create drama over even a mailing list, Discord is turbocharging the ability for nuisance. Maybe it's my "Am I out of touch ? No it's the children who are wrong" moment, but I really think OSS projects would benefit from ditching discord.
- opan 8mo agoStrongly agreed. I'd like to see users pushing more for this. Return to IRC, try XMPP or Matrix, put up a forum. Lots of options exist that would be more freedom-respecting, stable, and publicly searchable.
- yomismoaqui 8mo agoYou are not out of touch, I rember in the 90s when people recommended using IRC for Linux questions and I hated it. I didn't want to ask something and interacting in pseudo-realtime with another human being (that could potentionally laugh at me for asking a n00b question). News groups were a little better for this, but the real progress was when you could search them or later read the answer in Stack Overflow. And the final step here is a LLM agent that has a web/doc search tool and can answer more difficult questions.
- digiown 8mo agoIt is. I'm not a fan of Drew Devault, but I can agree with this article of his: https://drewdevault.com/2021/12/28/Dont-use-Discord-for-FOSS.html https://drewdevault.com/2021/12/28/Dont-use-Discord-for-FOSS... The most salient part: > Using Discord partitions your community on either side of a walled garden, with one side that’s willing to use the proprietary Discord client, and one side that isn’t. It sets up users who are passionate about free software — i.e. your most passionate contributors or potential contributors — as second-class citizens.
- razighter777 8mo agoThis is pure dramaposting- "post-mortem" is so misleading and mischaracterizes the situation. I don't use bazzite, I don't know Kyle or anybody here, but I am tired of the drama. All of the things listed in the blog are personal and technical disagreements, nothing morally reprehensible, no disrespect, nothing that would make anyone want to burn bridges like this. It's fine to leave a project and to publicize disagreements but this comes across as spiteful.
- rbtbisrespected 8mo ago[dead]
- moribvndvs 8mo agoLeftism and OSS share a similar problem, being that good ideas, intentions, and works are squandered by petty drama and insecure egos.
- otikik 8mo agoRight-ism is the same, without the good intentions or ideas.
- hysan 8mo agoLinking related post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46818467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46818467 AFAIK, removing Antheas from Bazzite opened the door to discussions for forming the OGC. Prior to that, Antheas had created such difficult situations that many of the member groups in the OGC did not collaborate with Bazzite because of his presence. Whether or not the OGC actually works (ex: getting patches upstreamed faster), only time will tell.
- pelzatessa 8mo agoSome time ago I actually downloaded bazzite to run in a VM in order to play some indie games from itch.io and to not worry about them doing some shady things on my computer. I installed the OS and everything was fine, but to my surprise..... wine was not installed by default (I'm not familiar with wine environment, i just got that impression because the terminal didn't recognize the wine command when i typed it manually). I get that the distribution is geared towards steam+proton usage, but I was disoriented to see that one creates "an operating system for gamers", which will most certainly run a lot of windows executables, and then won't include wine in it. There is lutris preinstalled and the documentation also hints towards installing winezgui from their appstore (which is what I did), but I wonder why wasn't that obvious for the developers of bazzite that after installing the system, user would just want to download a game, double click the executable and play. On the other hand, wine tends to be quite heavy package (503MB installed size according to arch repo), perhaps that's the reason for not including it.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- Bender 8mo agoI've been testing Bazzite and noticed a couple of things that raised an eyebrow for me. Sexual preferences in Bazaar options tool to update flatpaks seems out of place and even if not the limited subset of flags is odd. To me personally that is risking potential drama in the OS/apps. There is also a suspiciously long delay in closing the shell terminal which feels like it is storing or sending something but I have yet to debug it. This does not occur on any other of the many Linux distributions I have tested. It is a snappy and decent distro otherwise. Good thing they are removing drama, something that almost nuked Mint not long after its inception.
- presbyterian 8mo ago> Sexual preferences in Bazaar options tool to update flatpaks seems out of place and even if not the limited subset of flags is odd. I've been using Bazzite for almost a year and I have no idea what this is referring to
- Bender 8mo agoClick Bazaar in menu bar -> Click hamburger button -> Scroll Down
- presbyterian 8mo agoStill don't see what you're talking about
- Bender 8mo agoWhen is the last time you ran sudo ujust upgrade or at least sudo bootc upgrade and then rebooted? I am on Bazzite 43, default desktop installation. If we are not seeing the same thing that is almost as concerning as the terminal shell exit delay.
- squigz 8mo agoCan you provide a screenshot or explain what it is for those of us who don't have a Bazzite install to check with?
- cedws 8mo agoThis is a shame, I’ve been running Bazzite on my gaming PC since Christmas and have been pretty happy with it. To the honest I don’t really care who is at fault, I don’t want the maintainers of my OS to be a drama show, so I’ll probably switch to Cachy. Building my own image would be cool but it’s not high on my list of priorities.
- cornhole 8mo agothis is why I don’t pay attention to most Linux distros except debian and fedora
- CarrieKalman 8mo ago[dead]