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Yes, because governments are so restrained in their use of propaganda. What it is is the consequence of the power existing. 200 years ago nobody was arguing ab

by jerf 8mo ago

Yes, because governments are so restrained in their use of propaganda. What it is is the consequence of the power existing. 200 years ago nobody was arguing about how to hook people in the first 0.2 seconds of video, but it's not because nobody would have refused the power it represents if offered. They just couldn't have it. It's humans. People want this power over you. All of them.

ffsm8 8mo ago
Well adjusted people so not want that power over other people It's sociopaths and narcissists which want it. And as Atlas667 pointed out, it's also a direct consequence from a capitalistic world view, where it has replaced your morals. This is not in relationship to state propaganda. Multiple things can cause abhorrent behavior, and just because we've identified something as problematic doesn't inherently imply that other unrelated examples are any better.
- jerf 8mo ago
  We've always had sociopaths and narcissists, and if you're looking to "capitalism" as the reason why they exist, you're in out-and-out category error territory, not-even-wrong territory. Now that this power exists to be had, human beings are racing to acquire it. If you think you can fix that by "fixing capitalism" you are completely wasting your efforts.
  - dwallin 8mo ago
    Given that these tendencies are not evenly distributed throughout the population, you can have structures that leverage the large mean to mitigate the worst tendencies of the extreme tails. Given that the natural state of things is that power begets more power, these are harder to build and maintain, but it can be done. In particular, Democracies and Republics are major historical examples of this.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - shermantanktop 8mo ago
    So if that’s not the answer, what is? Should we just throw our hands in the air and say that technology has defeated our monkey brains, and there’s no going back?
- testdummy13 8mo ago
  "Well adjusted people so not want that power over other people" There are certainly well adjusted people that would like to fix things they feel are inefficiencies or issues in their government, especially when those issues are directly related to their areas of expertise. Thinking well adjusted people wouldn't want to be in a position of power is exactly how you ensure that only bad people end up with power.
  - riversflow 8mo ago
    Power seekers acquire power, not knowledge seekers. This is from Plato’s The Republic so about as old as it gets.
_factor 8mo ago
[flagged]
- afpx 8mo ago
  History contains abundant, well-documented cases of ordinary people participating in atrocities without coercion. Most people will act decently in low-pressure environments and will act badly under certain incentives, authority structures, or group dynamics. There is no way to know what a person's threshold is until it's tested, but it can be assumed that most people have a low threshold.
  - _factor 8mo ago
    Parent was implying “all” humans crave this power over others. This is patently false. “Most” people won’t act badly to attain this power, “some” will. Being placed into a position and choosing harm is not the same as pursuing it.
    - afpx 8mo ago
      That is absolutely against the evidence, but yes people do like to think they are naturally righteous and good.
      - klaff 8mo ago
        What evidence is there that ALL humans crave power over other humans?
        afpx 8mo ago
        We're literally animals, evolved for dominance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dominance_hierarchy_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dominance_hierarchy_sp... One could try to argue that some of us are special exceptions. But, there's no evidence for that. (The delightfully ironic humor of it is that people who presumably have your same point of view are down-voting me into negative)
pstuart 8mo ago
> All of them. At least an unhealthy amount of them. I have no desire to have power over people, except I would like it if my kids actually listened to me...
pluralmonad 8mo ago
To be fair, it is basically one and the same. I doubt most people railing against capitalism are actually against private property. They probably dislike corporatism which only exists as an extension of the government. Very very few of us voluntarily gave up our right to hold people personally responsible for their actions, but this is forced on everyone on behalf of business interests. The corporate vale is materialized from government alone.
- Levitz 8mo ago
  > I doubt most people railing against capitalism are actually against private property. They probably dislike corporatism which only exists as an extension of the government. I really don't know. In my experience, it can about private property when talking about housing, it is about markets when talking salaries and work conditions, and it's just about having no idea of what capitalism even is and just vaguely pointing at economics the vast majority of the time. "Capitalism" can be safely replaced with "the illuminati" or "Chem trails" in the vast majority of complaints I hear and read and the message would ultimately make as much sense. There's not a lot of how or why capitalism doesn't work, but by God there sure is a lot of what it seemingly does wrong.
  - Atlas667 8mo ago
    You are displaying your ignorance with pride. Just because you don't know what capitalism is, doesn't mean other people do not know. Just because you only read sources from capitalist media platforms doesn't mean there isn't a lot of "how" or "why" capitalism doesn't work. My main message was about the profit motive incentivizing the creation of addictions for the profit of tech companies. The invisible hand may expand the development of tech, but the visible hand needs to make people addicted and unhappy. Think a little before you speak, please. Or read a little more.
    - AlexandrB 8mo ago
      As bad as things are, the excesses of capitalism pale in comparison to the excesses of communism or fascism. If you have a better system, please present it to the class.
anonymars 8mo ago
Who said anything about government? I thought it was humans and people?
Atlas667 8mo ago
You didn't say anything. People do have this power right now, they are called capitalists, they are a part of the tech/info/policing industry. You don't have this control, I don't have this control. It's not humans in general, it's literally the capitalists. Right now, today. Try and "timelessly universalize" that. It's the people who make money from this who want it. I would rather that no one particular person or group of people have that much power, and I would rather help organize society to collectively and democratically decide what goes on with this tech but I guess that proudly makes me a communist.
measurablefunc 8mo ago
The system incentivizes seeking power by consolidating financial wealth. It doesn't have to be that way & this will eventually become obvious to everyone.

by jerf 8mo ago

ffsm8 8mo ago

Well adjusted people so not want that power over other people It's sociopaths and narcissists which want it. And as Atlas667 pointed out, it's also a direct consequence from a capitalistic world view, where it has replaced your morals. This is not in relationship to state propaganda. Multiple things can cause abhorrent behavior, and just because we've identified something as problematic doesn't inherently imply that other unrelated examples are any better.

jerf 8mo ago
We've always had sociopaths and narcissists, and if you're looking to "capitalism" as the reason why they exist, you're in out-and-out category error territory, not-even-wrong territory. Now that this power exists to be had, human beings are racing to acquire it. If you think you can fix that by "fixing capitalism" you are completely wasting your efforts.
- dwallin 8mo ago
  Given that these tendencies are not evenly distributed throughout the population, you can have structures that leverage the large mean to mitigate the worst tendencies of the extreme tails. Given that the natural state of things is that power begets more power, these are harder to build and maintain, but it can be done. In particular, Democracies and Republics are major historical examples of this.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- shermantanktop 8mo ago
  So if that’s not the answer, what is? Should we just throw our hands in the air and say that technology has defeated our monkey brains, and there’s no going back?
testdummy13 8mo ago
"Well adjusted people so not want that power over other people" There are certainly well adjusted people that would like to fix things they feel are inefficiencies or issues in their government, especially when those issues are directly related to their areas of expertise. Thinking well adjusted people wouldn't want to be in a position of power is exactly how you ensure that only bad people end up with power.
- riversflow 8mo ago
  Power seekers acquire power, not knowledge seekers. This is from Plato’s The Republic so about as old as it gets.

_factor 8mo ago

[flagged]

afpx 8mo ago
History contains abundant, well-documented cases of ordinary people participating in atrocities without coercion. Most people will act decently in low-pressure environments and will act badly under certain incentives, authority structures, or group dynamics. There is no way to know what a person's threshold is until it's tested, but it can be assumed that most people have a low threshold.
- _factor 8mo ago
  Parent was implying “all” humans crave this power over others. This is patently false. “Most” people won’t act badly to attain this power, “some” will. Being placed into a position and choosing harm is not the same as pursuing it.
  - afpx 8mo ago
    That is absolutely against the evidence, but yes people do like to think they are naturally righteous and good.
    - klaff 8mo ago
      What evidence is there that ALL humans crave power over other humans?
      - afpx 8mo ago
        We're literally animals, evolved for dominance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dominance_hierarchy_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dominance_hierarchy_sp... One could try to argue that some of us are special exceptions. But, there's no evidence for that. (The delightfully ironic humor of it is that people who presumably have your same point of view are down-voting me into negative)

pstuart 8mo ago

> All of them. At least an unhealthy amount of them. I have no desire to have power over people, except I would like it if my kids actually listened to me...

pluralmonad 8mo ago

To be fair, it is basically one and the same. I doubt most people railing against capitalism are actually against private property. They probably dislike corporatism which only exists as an extension of the government. Very very few of us voluntarily gave up our right to hold people personally responsible for their actions, but this is forced on everyone on behalf of business interests. The corporate vale is materialized from government alone.

Levitz 8mo ago
> I doubt most people railing against capitalism are actually against private property. They probably dislike corporatism which only exists as an extension of the government. I really don't know. In my experience, it can about private property when talking about housing, it is about markets when talking salaries and work conditions, and it's just about having no idea of what capitalism even is and just vaguely pointing at economics the vast majority of the time. "Capitalism" can be safely replaced with "the illuminati" or "Chem trails" in the vast majority of complaints I hear and read and the message would ultimately make as much sense. There's not a lot of how or why capitalism doesn't work, but by God there sure is a lot of what it seemingly does wrong.
- Atlas667 8mo ago
  You are displaying your ignorance with pride. Just because you don't know what capitalism is, doesn't mean other people do not know. Just because you only read sources from capitalist media platforms doesn't mean there isn't a lot of "how" or "why" capitalism doesn't work. My main message was about the profit motive incentivizing the creation of addictions for the profit of tech companies. The invisible hand may expand the development of tech, but the visible hand needs to make people addicted and unhappy. Think a little before you speak, please. Or read a little more.
  - AlexandrB 8mo ago
    As bad as things are, the excesses of capitalism pale in comparison to the excesses of communism or fascism. If you have a better system, please present it to the class.

anonymars 8mo ago

Who said anything about government? I thought it was humans and people?

Atlas667 8mo ago

You didn't say anything. People do have this power right now, they are called capitalists, they are a part of the tech/info/policing industry. You don't have this control, I don't have this control. It's not humans in general, it's literally the capitalists. Right now, today. Try and "timelessly universalize" that. It's the people who make money from this who want it. I would rather that no one particular person or group of people have that much power, and I would rather help organize society to collectively and democratically decide what goes on with this tech but I guess that proudly makes me a communist.

measurablefunc 8mo ago

The system incentivizes seeking power by consolidating financial wealth. It doesn't have to be that way & this will eventually become obvious to everyone.