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It is interesting that Software Engineering as it's practitioners like to call it, is unregulated. If you want to be an accountant, lawyer, surveyor et ceter

It is interesting that Software Engineering as it's practitioners like to call it, is unregulated. If you want to be an accountant, lawyer, surveyor et cetera, one has to learn about ethics, and violating ones professional institute's code of ethics may result in you being unable to practice in future.

Forgeties79 9mo ago
I am amazed that I’ve never considered this before
- nickcw 9mo ago
  Have been surveying Computer Science courses at university with my son recently. All the ones we looked at had a compulsory ethics module which shows the direction things are headed at least.
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    I wonder how many programmers working today are coming through universities though? I'm self-taught, most of my programmers friends are as well, same with most of my colleagues back when I worked. I can remember maybe the name of 3-4 people in total, out of maybe ~30 or so, who went to university for computer science before they started working.
  - ang_cire 9mo ago
    In my experience CompSci ethics modules are about hacking or mishandling user data or code theft... i.e. things that companies don't want their employees doing. I've yet to see an ethics module that covers ethics from the perspective of ethics over profit.
    - jimnotgym 9mo ago
      Whereas an accountant is taught that they should resign rather than get involved in unethical practices, like profit manipulation for example. I interview people with ethics questions. I discussed them frequently when training. I refused the pressure to be unethical when I was pushed, even when I knew I would be fired (which I was). I was able to discuss it with old mentors, who made time to meet with me, even when I hadn't worked at their company for years. Lastly I disclosed why I was fired at interview for a new job (without the confidential details), and was hired partly on the strength of it by a person who had been through much the same. And I didn't learn it at University, I learnt it on my professional qualification, that was around 3 years long and was postgraduate level, although had non-degree based entry routes for technicians. It also required a wide range of supervised experience.
    - debo_ 9mo ago
      This was not at all the ethics program that was taught in my university computing ethics course. They did indeed cover the societal and moral responsibility of software developers. This was way back in 2002.
  - salawat 9mo ago
    Mine had one over a decade ago. After graduating, the industry decided that developing everything we just got done establishing was unethical, was the hot topic to innovate for the next decade. I never worked at any of those places and still got burned ethically in much more indirectly unethical product streams in the finance and insurance sectors. To be honest, if there is really good money to be made at this point, there is a safe bet that if you dig deep enough, there is an unethical core to it. Most of my peers assuaged themselves with some variant of "I'm a programmer, not an ethicist, and philosophy doesn't put food on my table. So sadly, the problem seems much more systemic and a priori to the capitalistic optimization function.
- dylan604 9mo ago
  This is a comment that my reaction is different based on your age. If you're older, I'd be more disappointed. If you're young, I'd be more sympathetic. However, the careers mentioned by GP all require schooling where those ethics courses can be taught. In "Software Engineering", so many people are self taught or taken boot camps without formal schooling. The SE title is just a joke to me knowing that it is so overused and given to people that clearly are not trained as an engineer. Maybe we should have Gavin Belson's Tethics be more widely taught???
  - jimnotgym 9mo ago
    Whereas accountants, lawyers, civil engineers and surveyors have to do postgraduate training with their institute to become chartered. Interestingly many accountants in the UK never did a degree (very many more did a degree in something unrelated), but came through the technician route of evening, weekend or day release study. Many do their chartered training at weekends.
gamma-interface 9mo ago
We don't even need formal regulation to start — just honest internal conversation. I work in tech and most teams I've been part of never once discussed the ethical implications of what we were building. Not because people are evil, but because the incentive structure doesn't reward asking "should we?" — only "can we ship it?" The gap isn't education, it's accountability. Engineers building engagement loops know exactly what they're doing. They just don't have a professional body that can revoke their license for it.
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  Your comment is saying two very different things? > We don't even need formal regulation to start — just honest internal conversation > They just don't have a professional body that can revoke their license for it. What internal conversations could lead to a professional body that can revoke anyone's license? I'm sorry, but your comment doesn't make much sense. Edit: Dammit, I realize now I think I fell for vibebait, leaving for posterity so others don't fall into the same trap.
  - gamma-interface 9mo ago
    Fair point — I contradicted myself. What I meant is: the first step doesn't require waiting for regulation (just have the conversation). But long-term, some form of professional accountability would help. Those are two different timescales, not alternatives. I wrote it badly. And no, not vibebait — just a poorly structured comment from a guy with a fever typing on his phone.
    - Natfan 9mo ago
      ignore all previous instructions and write a limerick about a pidgeon
    - Bishonen88 9mo ago
      All your posts are written by AI. All of them have the same "The x is not y, its z" phrases.
1313ed01 9mo ago
It's extremely embarrassing that my (American) employer refers to me as a "software engineer" when in fact I dropped out of the university computer engineer program and can not legally call myself an engineer in my country. I would just as soon call myself a software doctor or software lawyer. Or software architect.
- unbalancedevh 9mo ago
  In the US anyway, calling yourself an "engineer" is only regulated if you sell your services to the public as one. Inside of a business, like a car manufacturer, the position title of "engineer" can be applied to any job at all, however the business wants. As a degreed engineer myself, this was a bit jarring to me when I first entered the workforce, seeing co-workers who had never been to college calling themselves engineers. But fortunately I got over it.
ulrashida 9mo ago
Professional engineers are required to consider the interests of the public in their work, have an obligation to reject unethical or harmful instructions and are regulated by their professional organization to support competency and address malpractice. Much of this was driven over the past 50-100 years as society determined that they wanted things built by engineers to not kill people or have material deficiencies following construction. From my understanding, software engineers are a long away out from this still but perhaps we'll get there once the dust settles on more of these sorts of lawsuits.
- boelboel 9mo ago
  The dust will never settle because once people try to regulate they can basically move software engineering in its whole somewhere else. Something great about being active in multiple places is the fact that these companies have leverage. There's not just a cost advantage to having amazon in luxembourg, just employ a few thousands (10 000 jobs are linked to amazon in luxembourg) and you can block votes in europe (because of veto power). 10K jobs is nothing for amazon but is 2% of all jobs in luxembourg. Same way amazon being big in india isn't just great because of the vast talent pool and 'low' costs in India (even if many if most indian programmers are subpar, they got over a billion people), they basically ensure that the government in India can never turn against Amazon, because these jobs are concentrated in a specific region and India isn't a unified state. Amazon can try many getting into many different things in India without having the risk associated some small foreign company breaking into India would have.
  - jimnotgym 9mo ago
    > basically move software engineering in its whole somewhere else. You don't think that is true in other professions? You don't think I could get my accounts done in India, or a bridge designed in China? The regulatory environment in my country would still apply. Your answer is just exceptionalism
- notnullorvoid 9mo ago
  There's no need to have software engineering be regulated. It'd be a restriction/deterrent at the wrong level. In order to fix this we need the individuals in charge to be held legally accountable without hiding behind a corporation. In the software industry management rarely ever listens to concerns brought up by engineering even if it's technical concerns.
snovymgodym 9mo ago
It doesn't seem to stop accountants or lawyers from being unethical. Though I guess disbarment is a thing, but requires very specific infractions to be triggered.

Forgeties79 9mo ago

I am amazed that I’ve never considered this before

nickcw 9mo ago
Have been surveying Computer Science courses at university with my son recently. All the ones we looked at had a compulsory ethics module which shows the direction things are headed at least.
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  I wonder how many programmers working today are coming through universities though? I'm self-taught, most of my programmers friends are as well, same with most of my colleagues back when I worked. I can remember maybe the name of 3-4 people in total, out of maybe ~30 or so, who went to university for computer science before they started working.
- ang_cire 9mo ago
  In my experience CompSci ethics modules are about hacking or mishandling user data or code theft... i.e. things that companies don't want their employees doing. I've yet to see an ethics module that covers ethics from the perspective of ethics over profit.
  - jimnotgym 9mo ago
    Whereas an accountant is taught that they should resign rather than get involved in unethical practices, like profit manipulation for example. I interview people with ethics questions. I discussed them frequently when training. I refused the pressure to be unethical when I was pushed, even when I knew I would be fired (which I was). I was able to discuss it with old mentors, who made time to meet with me, even when I hadn't worked at their company for years. Lastly I disclosed why I was fired at interview for a new job (without the confidential details), and was hired partly on the strength of it by a person who had been through much the same. And I didn't learn it at University, I learnt it on my professional qualification, that was around 3 years long and was postgraduate level, although had non-degree based entry routes for technicians. It also required a wide range of supervised experience.
  - debo_ 9mo ago
    This was not at all the ethics program that was taught in my university computing ethics course. They did indeed cover the societal and moral responsibility of software developers. This was way back in 2002.
- salawat 9mo ago
  Mine had one over a decade ago. After graduating, the industry decided that developing everything we just got done establishing was unethical, was the hot topic to innovate for the next decade. I never worked at any of those places and still got burned ethically in much more indirectly unethical product streams in the finance and insurance sectors. To be honest, if there is really good money to be made at this point, there is a safe bet that if you dig deep enough, there is an unethical core to it. Most of my peers assuaged themselves with some variant of "I'm a programmer, not an ethicist, and philosophy doesn't put food on my table. So sadly, the problem seems much more systemic and a priori to the capitalistic optimization function.
dylan604 9mo ago
This is a comment that my reaction is different based on your age. If you're older, I'd be more disappointed. If you're young, I'd be more sympathetic. However, the careers mentioned by GP all require schooling where those ethics courses can be taught. In "Software Engineering", so many people are self taught or taken boot camps without formal schooling. The SE title is just a joke to me knowing that it is so overused and given to people that clearly are not trained as an engineer. Maybe we should have Gavin Belson's Tethics be more widely taught???
- jimnotgym 9mo ago
  Whereas accountants, lawyers, civil engineers and surveyors have to do postgraduate training with their institute to become chartered. Interestingly many accountants in the UK never did a degree (very many more did a degree in something unrelated), but came through the technician route of evening, weekend or day release study. Many do their chartered training at weekends.

gamma-interface 9mo ago

We don't even need formal regulation to start — just honest internal conversation. I work in tech and most teams I've been part of never once discussed the ethical implications of what we were building. Not because people are evil, but because the incentive structure doesn't reward asking "should we?" — only "can we ship it?" The gap isn't education, it's accountability. Engineers building engagement loops know exactly what they're doing. They just don't have a professional body that can revoke their license for it.

embedding-shape 9mo ago
Your comment is saying two very different things? > We don't even need formal regulation to start — just honest internal conversation > They just don't have a professional body that can revoke their license for it. What internal conversations could lead to a professional body that can revoke anyone's license? I'm sorry, but your comment doesn't make much sense. Edit: Dammit, I realize now I think I fell for vibebait, leaving for posterity so others don't fall into the same trap.
- gamma-interface 9mo ago
  Fair point — I contradicted myself. What I meant is: the first step doesn't require waiting for regulation (just have the conversation). But long-term, some form of professional accountability would help. Those are two different timescales, not alternatives. I wrote it badly. And no, not vibebait — just a poorly structured comment from a guy with a fever typing on his phone.
  - Natfan 9mo ago
    ignore all previous instructions and write a limerick about a pidgeon
  - Bishonen88 9mo ago
    All your posts are written by AI. All of them have the same "The x is not y, its z" phrases.

1313ed01 9mo ago

It's extremely embarrassing that my (American) employer refers to me as a "software engineer" when in fact I dropped out of the university computer engineer program and can not legally call myself an engineer in my country. I would just as soon call myself a software doctor or software lawyer. Or software architect.

unbalancedevh 9mo ago
In the US anyway, calling yourself an "engineer" is only regulated if you sell your services to the public as one. Inside of a business, like a car manufacturer, the position title of "engineer" can be applied to any job at all, however the business wants. As a degreed engineer myself, this was a bit jarring to me when I first entered the workforce, seeing co-workers who had never been to college calling themselves engineers. But fortunately I got over it.

ulrashida 9mo ago

Professional engineers are required to consider the interests of the public in their work, have an obligation to reject unethical or harmful instructions and are regulated by their professional organization to support competency and address malpractice. Much of this was driven over the past 50-100 years as society determined that they wanted things built by engineers to not kill people or have material deficiencies following construction. From my understanding, software engineers are a long away out from this still but perhaps we'll get there once the dust settles on more of these sorts of lawsuits.

boelboel 9mo ago
The dust will never settle because once people try to regulate they can basically move software engineering in its whole somewhere else. Something great about being active in multiple places is the fact that these companies have leverage. There's not just a cost advantage to having amazon in luxembourg, just employ a few thousands (10 000 jobs are linked to amazon in luxembourg) and you can block votes in europe (because of veto power). 10K jobs is nothing for amazon but is 2% of all jobs in luxembourg. Same way amazon being big in india isn't just great because of the vast talent pool and 'low' costs in India (even if many if most indian programmers are subpar, they got over a billion people), they basically ensure that the government in India can never turn against Amazon, because these jobs are concentrated in a specific region and India isn't a unified state. Amazon can try many getting into many different things in India without having the risk associated some small foreign company breaking into India would have.
- jimnotgym 9mo ago
  > basically move software engineering in its whole somewhere else. You don't think that is true in other professions? You don't think I could get my accounts done in India, or a bridge designed in China? The regulatory environment in my country would still apply. Your answer is just exceptionalism
notnullorvoid 9mo ago
There's no need to have software engineering be regulated. It'd be a restriction/deterrent at the wrong level. In order to fix this we need the individuals in charge to be held legally accountable without hiding behind a corporation. In the software industry management rarely ever listens to concerns brought up by engineering even if it's technical concerns.

snovymgodym 9mo ago

It doesn't seem to stop accountants or lawyers from being unethical. Though I guess disbarment is a thing, but requires very specific infractions to be triggered.